Rattle & Pedal: The Dynamics of Divergent Views, with Jason Mlicki and Jeff McKay

Podcasting is a way to refine your perspective and innovate business strategies. 

With two different world views, Jason Mlicki and Jeff McKay embarked on a journey to explore divergent thoughts on professional services marketing and growth via their podcast, "Rattle and Peddle." Jason, a marketing veteran with over 20 years of experience, and Jeff, a strategic consultant, use their podcast to satisfy curiosity and invite diverse perspectives. In this episode, you'll learn:

• How Rattle & Pedal serves as an R&D lab and helps Jason and Jeff evolve in their thinking
• The dynamic origins of "Rattle and Peddle" and the significance of their divergent views
• The creative and experimental process behind podcast episodes and themes
• The balance of co-hosted discussions and guest insights that shape their content
• The importance of feedback from listeners and how it fosters "conversations at scale"

This episode was produced by Red Cedar Marketing. Need help launching and running a business podcast that actually produces results? Visit www.redcedarmarketing.com.

Transcript

John Tyreman: 0:06

Welcome business podcasters to another episode of podcasting and professional services. If this is your first time here, this podcast features stories of experts and professional service providers who have created a business impact through the power of podcasting. I'm your host, John Tyerman. If you're watching this on YouTube, hit that like button, hit that subscribe button. If you're listening on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating and review. Today's episode features Jason Malicki and Jeff McKay, both co hosts of the rattle and pedal podcast. Um, on that show, they explore divergent. Thoughts on marketing and growing professional services firms. So chances are, if you're listening to this podcast, you'll really like that show. I know I've been a listener for years. Um, and I've had a few of these conversations, these podcasts, interviews with co hosts of other podcasts, and. My goal is to really capture the chemistry and the energy that they bring and give you an example of kind of the power of co hosting a podcast. And I think that this interview is a great example of that. Um, we talked about why Jason and Jeff decided to launch a podcast in the first place, how that came about. We talked about how the, their podcast has helped them each sharpen their point of view. Um, we talked about how they each measure success and they both look at that a little bit differently. So I thought that was really interesting. Uh, we spoke about their creative process and their approach to selecting, uh, episode topics, but then broader themes that they like to explore. So I thought that that was an interesting perspective. Um, and then we talked about their plans for where they want to take the show from here. So I think it's, uh, I think you'll find a lot of value in this conversation. Um, but first imagine you're able to build trust with buyers. Imagine you're able to rapidly accelerate your network growth and create endless content all from just one activity. Well, that's the power of podcasting. And if you're ready to explore the idea of launching a podcast for your business, I'm offering a free podcast consultation. Simply go to redcedarmarketing. com or send me a message on LinkedIn to get in touch. All right. And here's my conversation with Jason and Jeff. Co hosts of rattle and peddle. Today, my guests are Jason Malicki, principal of rattleback, the marketing For professional services firms and Jeff McKay, former CMO and founder of the strategy consultancy, prudent pedal, Jason, Jeff, welcome to the show.

Jeff McKay: 2:39

Nice to be here.

Jason Mlicki: 2:40

Yeah. Thanks for having us, John. I'm excited to

John Tyreman: 2:42

Um, I'm excited for, for having this conversation today. I've been looking forward to this, been a follower of rattle and pedal for. Uh, five or six years. Um, and, um, I, I just would love to hear kind of like the origin story of Rattle and Pedal. Like why start a podcast in the first place? How did this show come about? I guess, Jeff, let's start, start with you.

Jeff McKay: 3:07

Oh boy. Um, you know, I love this question. What's that?

Jason Mlicki: 3:13

I'm curious to see how he answers this, John.

Jeff McKay: 3:16

Oh gosh. Well, this is one of my favorite questions when I meet, uh, a married couple, right? Tell me your, your, your, uh, connection story. Ours, I really like how we came to be, because our, our podcast was preceded by, uh, a relationship that started, um, quite a few years before. I had just started Prudent Petal. Uh, Jason was kind of repositioning rattleback and we both found ourselves at an association of management consulting firms. Uh, meeting in Chicago and it was kind of like a who's who of, of firms, Accenture, McKinsey, uh, gosh, BCG and some, some local firms and Bob Boudet, uh, was presenting and, um, Jason stood up and asked a question, made a comment early on and I was like, that was a good question. That,

Jason Mlicki: 4:24

the crap is that guy?

Jeff McKay: 4:25

Yeah, who is that guy? Um, and then I guess I stood up and said, asked a question and Jason's like, Hey, that was a good question. I wonder who that guy is. So at the break, I don't remember which one of us came up to the other first, but we're like, Hey, and we jumped in on that question and just started a dialogue. And after we left that meeting, um, I don't know if Jason called me or I called him, but we end up calling each other like once a month and just asking these big questions. Hey, I'm working with a client. I kind of got this. What do you think? Or we would just say I saw something on social media and. You know, this is weird. This is stupid. Why are people doing this? Right? And Jason said, man, I wish we had recorded that call after we had those calls. And it just became a popular refrain after we were having this conversation. Man, I wish we had recorded that because you said this. I need to remember. So several years later, Jason called me. It was his idea to start the podcast and said, Hey, Let's just hit record on the conversations we were already

John Tyreman: 5:47

Nice.

Jeff McKay: 5:48

and that started it.

Jason Mlicki: 5:50

You know, it's funny. The one thing I'll add one thing to this, and it's just that I actually remember. Exactly what Jeff said at that conference is really weird. So he stands up and he says, uh, you know, every professional services firm knows why their clients hire them, but they don't know how. And that was actually, I thought a really insightful comment at the time. And, uh, and I remember I still thought to myself, I'm like, I didn't know he was a consultant. I was like, that's, that's my next client. I'm going to go track this guy down. Cause I'm thinking like, he'd be a great client. Cause he's thinking the right way. He's thinking about this kind of with like an open curiosity about like what's happening here. And, uh, so we started talking and like, like he said, the rest is history. Um, so, and I agree, I think it's that that's what has made rattle and peddle work, I think is because it was a natural conversation that we were having all the time. And then all of a sudden it was just extending it into an audience and, and, and recapturing some of the, some of the things we've been talking about anyway. Um, and then eventually we'll get into this further, you know, obviously the, the show morphed and changed over time as any show does. Yeah.

John Tyreman: 7:00

So you, you too, uh, kind of hit it off in terms of like a philosophical level and the way that you, you two kind of align in your thinking. And then having those conversations to just help each other out with your businesses kind of morphed into, um, Hey, we should be recording this. And this was at a time in this is 2018, 2017, kind of around then, you know, podcasts were still relatively kind of nascent in their adoption. And so I think that was pretty, pretty forward thinking of you guys to, to have the wherewithal to kind of take that leap, um, and record it and publish it on a, on a new platform. And, um, you know, I was listening to, um, your bicentennial episode and, um, Jason, you said something that kind of stood out when you were talking about some of the, the podcast episodes that you thought were going to do well, or that should have done well, but didn't, you know, match the top performing, uh, episodes. And you remarked that everyone's interested in hearing how to figure out what issues to build a thought. Leadership program kind of around, but when it comes to how you make those point of views compelling, there's less interest in kind of learning how to do that. And I thought that was really cool. And I guess that leads me into my next question. Um, and Jason, we can start with you from your perspective. Would you say your podcast has helped sharpen your point of view or make it more compelling?

Jason Mlicki: 8:24

a hundred percent. So in fact, uh, you know, um, what one, uh, actually a compliment to Jeff, Jeff has helped sharpen my point of view on sort of like, The world in general, he's helped shape my worldview a lot over the last 5 years in a good way. He's helped, um, sharpen my point of view on specific business issues that clients have. But then actually, I know 1 of the things you asked me in leading up to this is like, um. You know, what, what do we want to get out of the podcast? Like, why do we, why do we do this? And for me, it's sort of like an R and D lab. It's like, I use it as a space to explore topics. I don't always know a lot about, sometimes I know nothing about the topic going in and we, and the guests come in and I learn, I'm learning from them. I'm like, I never thought about that. I never saw that. Um, so I kind of lost the thread of the question, but essentially the, the, for me, that's really what, what it's been all about is just finding ways. To Fill my curiosity on a regular basis around the things that I just don't know the answers to. And I, and I've learned over time, having marketed in this professional services landscape now for going on 20 plus years, the volume of stuff I don't know is bigger than the volume of stuff. I do know. It's just shocking how much more there is to learn and how much more that I'm just curious to learn about. So anyway. Both guests and Jeff, I think have helped change that worldview dramatically.

John Tyreman: 9:52

of like an iron sharpens iron kind of thing. It's where you're taking an idea and you're kind of battle testing it between the two of you. And then, you know, that may spark an idea to kind of refine your point of view, maybe on your blog or maybe in your talk, your speaking engagements and things like that. That's really interesting. Jeff, I'd love to hear from you. What is, what's your perspective on how the podcast has helped shape your own point of view?

Jeff McKay: 10:18

When we first started and our tagline still is divergent thoughts on growing professional services, um, and our intro music has this kind of discordant sound to it. Those were very purposeful because when we first started out, Jason and I had very different views on the world, and that's what made the conversations so much fun, is, I was like, ah, you know, it would be kind of like that Saturday Night Live skip for people that are older than you, John. Jane, you ignorant slut.

Jason Mlicki: 11:01

Yeah, but if

Jeff McKay: 11:01

You know, it's like, how can I even respond to what you just said? I mean, we used to, we used to like really butt heads a lot and we got some feedback from, from, uh, our listeners about, I, I really liked that and others. We don't like that, that, you guys need to be nicer to one another, but what's really cool about, um, a partnership like we have is we both bring ideas and we beat them up before the show. I could not imagine doing a show on my own and being self reliant because I think the topics that we choose and the perspective On those are so much more robust because of Jason. Um, I think it's been really cool to see how Jason has evolved since we started this. Um, his point of view, and he's really authentic about how his point of view has evolved, which I think is cool because I, it shows humility and a commitment. Um, to learning, um, but I always say Jason is the talent of the show, um, because he has this incredible ability to synthesize ideas. And articulate him in a way that I, I don't. And I see how he has evolved and I hate him every episode we get on it. We hate because, you know, like a, like a great book, you know, the protagonist, you know, In the story arc, matures and changes. And I'm like, that's Jason. And I look at myself, I'm like, I'm doing the same damn stupid stuff that when it started, but Jason has, has really evolved. And his thinking has helped mine every bit as much as, as I've helped his.

Jason Mlicki: 13:11

Well, it's a good partnership. Hey, Jeff, can I tell him some of the, the, the titles for the podcast that we threw away?

Jeff McKay: 13:18

Oh my gosh.

Jason Mlicki: 13:18

So we were trying to, when we tried to

Jeff McKay: 13:20

So, yeah. Rattle and Peddle was not our first choice. So, a partnership requires a lot of compromise.

Jason Mlicki: 13:29

Yeah, there was, there was literally hundreds of options that we were, that we brainstormed and we were thinking of. And, and we've actually seen some, some podcasts out there since that we'd like their names better. But anyway, my favorite one, this is the one I think you're going to know I'm going to go to was we're going to call it the atheist and the Catholic.

John Tyreman: 13:48

there you

Jason Mlicki: 13:48

Because, because Jeff is convinced that I'm, because I'm not Catholic, I'm atheist, even though I'm not just to be clear, but, uh, we always thought that would be kind of fun, but, but, but I think it was just because we had such just, just, just diverse, divergent worldviews. The one thing I will say real quick is, um, and I'll let, we'll, I'll let you keep going, but you asked about production processes a little bit and I'll, and I'll, one thing I'll say about that, and we'll get to that later, but is that I think in terms of having a partnership. It because you are, both of our careers are ebbing and flowing all the time. That's super helpful in terms of topic selection. I think that's actually been one of the greatest things is that there are windows when Jeff's so busy, he doesn't really have a whole lot of time to think about the podcast. And so then I'm figuring out topics and identifying guests and working them. And then, then it shifts the other way. There's times when it's like, Oh gosh, I'm so busy. And then he takes over. So it's, I think it does help. You know, um, both practically and, and philosophically on both levels. I think it's, it's valuable.

John Tyreman: 14:52

Yeah, I do want to get into that because I think that it's really cool the way that, um, You know, you've, you've set up your show to where, you know, some episodes are you two having a conversation and then some episodes you do bring in a guest and then there is a balance to that. And I think that offers diversity to your listeners. It's not just you interviewing guests over and over again. You're bringing your, both of your thoughts and perspectives and, you know, divergent perspectives to the table. And I think that adds to the entertainment value of the show. Um, so how, how do you balance that? Um, obviously. You know, is it intentional to where you want to have a certain ratio of guest interviews to, uh, co hosted commentary style? Um, I guess Jeff or Jason, I guess who, who, you know, do you guys have an opinion on that?

Jeff McKay: 15:43

sense is the topic drives the nature of the episode.

John Tyreman: 15:48

Okay.

Jeff McKay: 15:48

If we're delving into a topic that is, um, You know, uh, area of, of deep expertise for us, we may tackle it, or if we feel we have deep expertise in this, but we think our listeners might benefit from some different content. Perspectives, uh, we'll, we'll get a guess, or if we want to illustrate, um, examples of our thinking that are real in the world, we might bring in a guest. But, uh, we just did, uh, an episode on, or a series on AI. And we're like, who has deep expertise on AI? It's so fledgling. We had no choice. Let's go out and just. and find the best people we can on AI. So those were guests. But if we're talking about developing a point of view, thought leadership, marketing strategy, we, we just, we just jump into those

John Tyreman: 16:58

Mm hmm.

Jason Mlicki: 17:00

Yeah. I would say there's no specific ratio. I, we like to work in themes. So we try to work on, you know, pick a theme and work it through five or six episodes until we get to a logical conclusion where we feel like we've found some new ground, uncovered some new insight or new thinking. That we shared a different way of looking at it. Um, so for us, a lot of times that's the arc. I also like the themes to have openings and closings whenever possible. So we can say, we're going to talk about this for a little while. And here's what we think going into it. So we almost have a working hypothesis for the conversations we're going to have with the guests. And then a lot like a recap at the end. So it's like, okay, here's what we learned from all those people. You know, we had them in, here's what they said. Here's what was interesting. Here's what, to your point, Jeff, you know, changed my mind. I never thought about it that way. And I think that's a better way to think about it than I had prior. Um, so, so I, I wouldn't say there's a rigid structure to that. Um, in fact, I don't know if there's a rigid structure to anything that we do really. I mean, would you agree with me, Jeff?

Jeff McKay: 18:03

Well, when, when we started out, um, we gave some thought to the themes. And I actually put a graphic together of a Venn diagram of the topics that I wanted to go after that reinforced the Prudent Petal brand. And Jason put the topics he wanted to go after from a Rattleback brand, and we kind of parse those out in that Venn diagram because we have different buyers. Um, I only work with managing partners and CEOs of firms where Jason. We'll do some of that, but he works often more with the marketing function. So, so there's somewhat different and different perspectives and our audience kind of reflects that. Um, and our, uh, and our subject matter as a result, kind of flexes from a more executive view and a marketing view. But from what I've seen in our audience, the marketers that listen to our podcasts. generally are much more strategic marketers and they're on an executive trajectory. So, so we're able to, to kind of align

John Tyreman: 19:19

I, I think that's a good mix of themes though, because you, you get the executives who maybe it would, it would benefit them to hear some of the more tactical marketing perspective, because that influences their high level thought. And then kind of vice versa, where you've got the marketers who, you know, maybe they, they get tunnel vision in their, in marketing world, but they, they need to see the bigger picture. And I think that kind of helps kind of reinforce, but like you said, Jeff, the growth trajectory of, um, some of your listeners.

Jason Mlicki: 19:48

Yeah. No, very much. So I, I, I agree with everything you just said. I think, um. You know, um, and I think that's what we want. I actually really, we, we, you know, I, for me anyway, I don't, I won't speak for Jeff on this, is that if someone comes to the show and they listen, and as a marketer, they become a better business person, then that's a win. Um, if a business person, an executive leader comes in and they understand marketing better, that's a win. You know, I think we, I would like both those parties to find value in the show, um, as much as possible.

John Tyreman: 20:22

That's really cool. I'd like to talk a little bit about kind of how you both measure the success of the podcast and how that may have evolved over time. Um, a lot of podcasters that I talked to, um, and when they first start out, they have certain goals that they want to hit. Maybe they're more vanity metrics or, you know, certain downloads, they've got visions of monetizing the podcast, but then, you know, later on in their journey, that changes and they realize that there's different kinds of benefits, business benefits of a podcast. So I'm curious, um, maybe Jeff, let's start with you when you first started, how did you plan to measure success? And then how do you measure success today?

Jeff McKay: 21:07

this is so funny. Um, and we have all these historical documents, um, because we. We, um, cataloged all these. I mean, so we still have the list of names that we potentially use. We still have the metrics and, and, and whatever. My view of these metrics were so. Um, overstated and ambitious in terms of listeners and leads and revenue. And when Jason saw those, he just, he just laughed at me. And rightfully so, rightfully so. I was so ignorant of the hill you have to climb. Um, and doing a podcast. So, I have softened those. And in my metrics are really kind of, um, quantitative and probably more qualitative, but I have, um, you know, demand gen, and we kind of talked about that, right, where we're putting our point of view out there and reinforcing our brands at the top of the, the funnel. We also, um, use it for lead gen. I've gotten clients through this, um, all different kinds of clients. And they'll say, Hey, I listened to your podcasts and you know, they'll schedule a consultation or meeting or, or something like that. Um, which is great, but I think I use it, um, so much more. in the interactions I'm having with people. Um, so I share episodes regularly with clients or potential clients that are wrestling with a problem. Say, hey, we talked about this subject. Here's the, here's perspective from two people. You can hear from a CEO or managing partner on how they, uh, looked at it. And that's invaluable to me. Um, because we have covered almost every issue I see in a business development situation, some form or other, and just say, Hey, listen to this. It'll give you some insights. You can learn how we think, but if you don't want to talk to us, There's still something you're going to take away from that. And then the other thing, I think this is really valuable. And John, I think you've talked about this on some of your episodes is it's a great introduction tool to invite guests. I mean, we have had guests on, I can't imagine me picking up the phone and calling them and getting the time of day. Without the podcast, and that's what's been, I think, the best part of having the podcast is using it as an introduction to, to people that I want to meet or I want to talk to, like Jason talked about, man, we just want to expand our thinking, come in and let's just talk, and, and I think that's the value for me.

John Tyreman: 24:23

Yeah. I like to say it unlocks conversations you wouldn't normally be able to have. Um, yeah, that's, those are, those are really good, good points, Jeff. And I like how your thinking has evolved over the years in terms of how you view the impact of the podcast on your business. Uh, Jason, I'd love to hear your perspective on, you know, how you first looked at measuring success and how that's changed.

Jason Mlicki: 24:44

Yeah. I mean, I never went into it with a, with a huge lead gen target or goal. Like I never saw the podcast as a great means to that. I mean, we, uh, rattleback have a pretty robust inbound marketing platform that we built. Off of a blog over the course of a decade. So, um, I went into it for a couple of things. One was, you know, I wanted to get off the speaking circuit. I had been traveling a lot and speaking a lot, and I was really kind of worn out. And I was wanting to be able to spend more time with my kids. And so, uh, I've saw it as a way to, to do the speaking I had been doing, but do it from the comfort of my office versus like, you know, flannel over the country. So that was one thing. So. And then the second thing was, again, the kind of the curiosity piece, and it started out as curiosity of like, how do you build a podcast? Like I didn't, I had, we'd never done it. So I wanted just to learn how to do it kind of to see if there was a market there for us for rattleback with our clients, uh, what that might look like. And then eventually just to learn about everything that we've done. We've, we've, every topic we've covered from culture to business development, uh, you name it. I mean, everything you can think of, we've, we've spent time on for me. I think now, when I think about the metrics that I think about and care about, I mean, yeah, you love it when an episode pops, that's obviously a great feeling when you have one that really spikes and you're like, wow, we really struck a chord there. Um, but I think more than anything is, um, like Jeff said, I, I like it when I get messages back from listeners. Or messages back from clients. And they said they found value in the show, because to me, what I've found is that it's like, I'm having, it enables me to have more conversations at scale, basically in utter simplicity. So it's like when they're listening, it's like, they're part of the conversation, even if they're not in the conversation and that's how they feel. And they tell me that's how they feel. So, it makes me realize that it's giving me a chance to kind of share my perspective, you know, with them on a regular basis, even if I don't have time to, to, to be with them on a regular basis.

John Tyreman: 26:48

I like that.

Jason Mlicki: 26:49

so that's to me, probably the most valuable thing is just the fact that I know that. It's helping as Jeff said, sort of build the brand and build a relationship with, with people that, that I may or may not know. Um, and that's probably my biggest goal.

John Tyreman: 27:04

Yeah. That's a, a, a theme that I've heard in talking with prospects and clients is they want to get out of the speaking circuit because it's just taking up so too much of their time and they want a better way to leverage their speaking skills. Um, and a podcast is definitely a way to do that. Um, yeah, that's, uh, that's, that's really interesting. And then it's like you're, you're, you're Like you said, you're having those conversations at scale. I like the way that you phrased that Jason.

Jason Mlicki: 27:31

So you're saying I'm not unique. My desire to get off the speaking circuit. I thought I was special, John. You're telling me I'm just like everybody else, every other guest,

John Tyreman: 27:38

I think we've all come to find the power of, you know, like webinars and virtual presentations and networking groups and zoom, you know, that's become so mainstream now and, um, it's so ingrained in our business culture that it's like, okay, why, why do in person speaking, why get on a jet and fly halfway across the country anymore? I'd love to get both of your perspectives and Jason, let's start with you. Like, where do you plan to take rattle and pedal from here? What, what is the next hundred episodes or what does the next year look like?

Jason Mlicki: 28:11

Well, that's not a hard question. Um, I think like, I don't want to say more of the same. I mean, obviously I think we have to evolve and we have to keep, keep Uh, pushing the envelope. I mean, I'd like us to continue to try new things. I mean, uh, about a year ago, we tested out a whole bunch of different formats. So we did, uh, we took topics and broke them down into five steps. We did, um, headline breakdowns. We would take big news items in the, in the news and break them down. I'd like to continue to do more of that, where we test new formats, test new approaches that take a different angle on what we're doing. And just seeing what works, I mean, we've never been rigid on our structure and I don't want us. In fact, we had a brief window in that testing phase, Jeff will attest to, where we tried to put structure on it. Well, we're going to do this type of episode, you know, this week of the month, and every week we were going to do a different type of episode. And we tried it for about three months and it felt really, uh, restrictive to us. And I just don't think it was working for us because we just don't work that way. Um, we're much more freeform thinkers. So, um, But yeah, I'd like to continue to grow the listenership and I'd like to continue to explore big meaty topics with interesting guests. I mean, one of the, I think the hallmarks of our show is that most of our guests are not people that are, many of them have never been on a podcast before, right? Like this is their first foray into it. So we, all of our guests, virtually all of our guests are people that we personally. Extend offers to and invitations to and recruit. Like, we don't, nobody really comes at us from the other direction. In fact, we pretty much ignore and reject every single 1 of those. I think only once have we ever had a guest on that came to us through. An inbound inquiry from a podcast, you know, uh, guest provider service or whatever. Um, we pretty much just blatantly ignore all those and delete them. And so, uh, for us, it's just, again, continuing to have interesting conversations with, with interesting thinkers. I think for me, that's probably the biggest thing I'd like to see out of the next hundred episodes is just more of that. Um,

John Tyreman: 30:27

So if, if folks are listening to this, please don't pitch Jason and Jeff to be a guest.

Jason Mlicki: 30:34

yes, yes, that's not and the ones that keep coming back for more and more and more. The ones that crack me up, John, I know you see these as well. It's like, you know. Um, they open with one kind of like semi flattering sentence, and then it's a hard pitch three, three and a half paragraphs of bullets about this speaker. And I'm just like, oh,

John Tyreman: 30:51

And you can tell they haven't listened to the show. They don't know. I, yeah, I get those all the time.

Jason Mlicki: 30:57

it's just drives you crazy. It's like, well, what are you doing? Like this? How this can't possibly be working? Um, I got

John Tyreman: 31:04

Jeff, I'd love to hear from your perspective. Where, where do you see, how do you see the show evolving or growing? I love Jason. I love your point about experimentation and having that be like a big part of, of what you guys are doing. Um, Jeff, is there anything that you'd add to that?

Jeff McKay: 31:19

I, I would agree with the experimentation and experimentation has gotten much easier for us over the years. Uh, in the first year or two, um, Jason came up with some harebrained ideas and I was just like, man, that's, that's just crazy. We're not,

Jason Mlicki: 31:41

lot of those.

Jeff McKay: 31:41

doing that. Yeah. Um, We have developed a level of trust where if Jason throws out an idea or I throw out an idea, we really don't go very deep on it. Um, it's okay. Yeah, let's run with it. I don't see how it works. I don't see where it's going, but I trust you. We'll run with it and that may start with a theme like, uh, we did a three part series on ESG, uh, branding and, and marketing. And Jason was like, what the hell? I don't want to do this. I, I just don't want to do it, but I'll do it because he trusted me. Um, And it ended up being one of our more popular episodes. And I think even Jason said in our Bicentennial, I was surprised. I was surprised we were ahead of the market on that one. And we just kind of developed that trust. So I think we'll experiment with ideas. The other area, um, that I feel we need to move into, but we've been hesitant is using video when we record, um, the, the podcast, we use video with our guests and, and one another, but we don't produce the video. I think the market is evolving to the point, um, and particularly with AI and its impact on search, having a presence on YouTube. I think is going to be critical. The only reason we haven't done it is because. I have a face for radio. Um, and I'm just hesitant to, to be out there on, on video. So it's, it's a confidence issue, not so much a production issue or anything like that. And it really is just a matter of pulling the switch on that.

John Tyreman: 33:45

I, I'm a big fan of video. At first I was a little hesitant. I was more of an audio guy. Um, growing up, I, uh, you know, recorded music in my parents basement, you know, much to their chagrin, and, um, you know, I was a big audio guy. But then, I, you know, I found kind of the benefits of video. And one of the things that I've noticed is that, you know, having the mere exposure effect of, Your face just being there on LinkedIn, on YouTube, and then people seeing your face over and over again, it builds trust, it builds familiarity with your face and your voice at the same time. Um, and to your point, I think that is really critical because we live in a day where, you know, executives can hire a ghostwriter executives can turn to AI to generate content that they can put on their social media on LinkedIn. And you don't really know if it, if that's them or they're thinking. Um, but you can't fake that with a video or with a podcast. Um, and so that's, that's, uh, yeah, you you're, I'm okay. I'll, I'll get down from my soapbox, but yeah, video is important. Um,

Jeff McKay: 34:52

Hey, we are not be, uh, above learning. So, you know, stay up on that soapbox and educate us.

John Tyreman: 35:00

uh, well that's, that's my whole, that's my whole point. I want to bring different perspectives, different podcasts, how different people are running their shows and what works, what doesn't, what experiments have been run. Um, Jeff, Jason, um, Thank you both so much for, uh, your time today talking about your podcast, Rattle and Pedal folks that are listening, check out their show, wherever you get your podcasts, um, and check out prudent pedal, check out rattlebacks website. And, um, I just want to say thank you both for your time.

Jeff McKay: 35:28

Our pleasure.

Jason Mlicki: 35:29

yeah, thank you very much, Sean. I enjoyed it.

John Tyreman: 35:33

All right. Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Jason and Jeff from rattle and peddle. If you found this episode insightful, please leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts, please subscribe to the YouTube channel and follow along on. LinkedIn. All right. Happy podcasting.