Amtower Off Center: Embracing New Channels in GovCon Marketing, with Mark Amtower

The GovCon market is made up of niches. Podcasting is like on-demand niche radio.

Mark Amtower, the host of "Amtower Off Center," part of the Federal News Network, is a leading expert in GovCon marketing and LinkedIn advising. Known for his deep understanding of the government market and strategic insights, Mark has been helping businesses navigate the complexities of government contracts for years. In this episode, you'll learn:

• How Mark leverages podcasts as a powerful tool for business development and client relationship building 
• Why adopting new communication channels is crucial, particularly in the typically slow-to-adapt government market 
• The strategies behind creating an engaging LinkedIn profile and connection strategy for government contractors 
• Mark's expert advice on starting your own podcast and standing out in niche-heavy markets 
• How consistent podcasting can position you as a subject matter expert in the business landscape

Connect with Mark on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markamtower/
Listen to Amtower Off Center: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/shows/amtower-off-center-podcast/

This episode was produced by Red Cedar Marketing. Need help launching and running a business podcast that actually produces results? Visit www.redcedarmarketing.com.

Transcript

John Tyreman: 0:06

Welcome business podcasters to another episode of podcasting and professional services. if this is your first time here, this podcast features stories of experts and professional service providers who have created a business impact through the power of podcasting. I'm your host, John Tyerman. And if you're watching this on YouTube, hit that like button, hit that subscribe button. If you're listening on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating and review. Today's episode features Mark Amtower, host of Amtower Off Center, which is a radio show and podcast for government contractors. Mark has had an extensive career pushing the envelope of marketing and communications in the government contracting space from direct mail in the 80s to email in the 90s to radio and podcasting in the early 2000s. We talked about his journey, getting into radio, the impact of podcasting on his career. We talked about a few tips on how to do LinkedIn more effectively and much, much more. But before we get to my conversation with Mark, imagine you're able to build trust with more buyers. Imagine you're able to accelerate your network growth more rapidly and create endless marketing content. All from one activity. Well, that's the power of podcasting. So if you're ready to explore the idea of launching a podcast for your business, I'm offering a free podcast consultation. Simply go to redcedarmarketing. com or send me a message on LinkedIn to get in touch. All right. And now for my conversation. Today, my guest is Mark Amtower, the preeminent GovCon marketing and LinkedIn advisor, speaker, coach, author, and host of the Amtower Off Center radio show and podcast. Welcome to the show, Mark.

Mark Amtower: 1:52

John, happy to be here, man. Thanks for inviting me.

John Tyreman: 1:55

Yeah, absolutely. And we've, we've had a couple of podcast conversations in the past. I believe, I think it was like five years ago

Mark Amtower: 2:02

At least, yeah. Yeah, they were fun.

John Tyreman: 2:05

Yeah, I think it was uh, Lee Fredrickson, Kelly Waffle, you and myself, we had a great conversation around your journey to becoming a visible expert in the government contracting space. So for folks that are listening to this, go check out that interview with Mark on the visible expert podcast. But Mark, for our conversation today what I'd love to do is just quickly kind of establish a timeline of your career just to get our audience up to speed. I think that there's a couple bullet points that I'd like to point out. Like for example, in the eighties, you built your business building and selling targeted mailing lists of key government employees. And then in the nineties, you launched a weekly e newsletter. And then in the early 2000s, you published books, eBooks, and audio programs through the government market press. So, throughout your career, you've been publishing content, adapting to new communications channels. And then in 2006, I saw you moved your radio program from Annapolis to D. C. And I'd love to kind of use this as a jumping off point. I'm curious, when did you first get into broadcasting? Mm

Mark Amtower: 3:13

I went to something called the National Publicity Summit that the Harrison brothers, Steve and Bill, put on. And I went a couple of different times, and there were several radio programs represented there so you could become a guest on their shows. And I was a guest on You know, between 2005 and 2007, I was probably on 20 different shows as a guest. And I liked it. I liked it a lot and I thought, you know, maybe I could do this. So, I went to WBIS in Annapolis and that was a pay for play. Situation so I needed some experience So I I paid I went there weekly. I actually was on air in annapolis But you know in order to listen to it, you needed a steel plate in your head because the signal was about five watts but it was it was weird because Literally, about a year later, WTOP, which is the parent to Federal News Radio, the head of the station, Joel Oxley, was having lunch with some government contractors, one of which was Mark Moyt, who was then with PRC, I think. I forget who he was with. He was with a big, big systems integrator. And he said, you know, your, your show, Federal News Network, Federal News Radio, was all about federal employees stuff. 24 hours a day, right? And a lot of repeat. He said, you need a show for government contractors and you need Amtower to do it. they contacted me. I started there in February 07. And I've been there ever since. You know, it's not my day job, but it is fun. And I get to, you know, one of the cool things about being a host is you get to access people that you might not otherwise get to access too easily. Hey, you want to be on my show? I'm on Federal News Network. Uh, Yeah.

John Tyreman: 5:32

That's one of the things that I've noticed too, is with a podcast, it's, you know, the people that you wouldn't normally be able to have a conversation with, they say yes, because of the platform and because of the ability for, you know, for them to reach a wider audience than just having a one to one conversation. So yeah, I've, I've definitely experienced that too. And Mark, I'd, I'd love to kind of dive into just your perspective on, you know, you seen a lot of change in the way businesses adopt technology to support marketing and new business development. Like for example, you started with mailing lists and then you got into email and then radio and broadcasting and LinkedIn. You know, I, we've seen many channels come and go like, yeah, I think Facebook's dying, I think LinkedIn is at a critical juncture right now. Email and podcasts, in my opinion, are like the two oldest and they're poised to kind of stand the test of time. Can you talk about your decision, you know, or maybe it was a joint decision with the federal news network. You moved your show onto an RSS feed in 2018 to be on a podcast. Was that decision made by the federal news network? Did you have any input on that? Can you walk me through that?

Mark Amtower: 6:48

I had no idea it was actually happening. And I'm, I'm not aware that it impacted anything because my show's always been downloadable. So you can go to the station website and listen to it anytime. You didn't have to be there, you know, whenever it was airing, because I've aired it a couple of different times. On the studio so it's always, I guess, technically been a podcast, but no, on, on the back end, I had no clue and, you know, I don't know what year it happened. I always thought of it as a radio show and and podcast. And I'm going, really?

John Tyreman: 7:30

Well, I think what's, what's cool about that is, you know, a radio show. It has a limited geographic reach. podcast has, you know, more broad national, if not global you know, re reach to it. So you could reach a much, much larger audience. Do you have, did you notice, you know, when folks started reaching out to you and saying, Hey, I love your podcast, were they out of market? Were they still in market? Like, did you notice that kind of geographic effect?

Mark Amtower: 7:56

There there was some of that that I noticed. But you know when I started the show, I mean, this strange timeline, right? So, LinkedIn started in 2003. I joined in 2004. I got on the radio 2007. I still wasn't using LinkedIn very well in 2007 because there weren't that many people there. It wasn't until like 2010 when more people started getting on LinkedIn. And I started hearing from a lot of people on LinkedIn then about the show. to your point, they were everywhere.

John Tyreman: 8:36

okay. And so the professional nature of LinkedIn, and the fact that that was more of a professional social networking platform combined with the fact that you were very early in adopting podcasting as a medium I think that kind of, that just creates like this perfect storm of you were in the right place on the right platform at the right time.

Mark Amtower: 8:58

I was a very lucky person to have been invited to come to Federal News Radio, now Federal News Network. I had already developed a, a, Pretty strong reputation in the market by that time, which is why it happened. So, but still it was, it was a matter of luck that my friend Mark Moit told Joel Loxley that he needed this show and he needed Amtower to do it.

John Tyreman: 9:26

I don't know that it was luck though, Mark, because, and that's kind of why I was like looking back at the timeline and you were, you have always been on the forefront of Marketing innovation and technology. And, you know, you were publishing an e newsletter in 96, right?

Mark Amtower: 9:42

Actually, I, yeah, as soon as soon as Netscape came out, I had to convert the hard copy to the

John Tyreman: 9:48

to, to email, right.

Mark Amtower: 9:50

yeah, and that saved me a lot of money too.

John Tyreman: 9:52

Sure. Yeah. Oh gosh, I'm sure. But I think like my point is that, you know, you were already kind of pushing the envelope in terms of like new communication channels. And so I think it was that maybe, can you speak to the importance of. Kind of pushing that envelope and, you know, you know, being flexible and adaptive to changes and how do you go to market.

Mark Amtower: 10:15

Right. Well, you and I are marketing people, and we have to be aware of new channels as they emerge, and in the government market, we are rarely in adopt early kind of organ, you know, ecosystem for a lot of things particularly marketing things, but being on the forefront there when they start to, you know, Emerge into the GovCon community is important to, you know, the Lee Fredrickson's and Mark Amtowers of the world. Now, Liz Haar and, and Austin, all of those guys. But yeah, you, you have to be there. And I was fortunate to have, you know, a, By that time, I had a great network and people would say, Hey, have you looked at this? Hey, have you looked at that? So, two years or so ago, people were saying, Hey, Mark, are you gonna join Clubhouse? Which was a supposedly business social network and I said, no, and they said, why? And I said, because nobody's there yet and, you know, inviting key people to go there doesn't mean traffic's going to occur. I'm going to stay where the traffic is until such time as, you know, it's necessary to migrate. And as it turns out, I don't even know if clubhouse exists anymore. Sorry. So I'm glad I didn't venture there.

John Tyreman: 11:45

Yeah, I, I think it still exists. I don't think that it is nearly as popular as we were led to believe it would be when it first came out. But yeah, it just seemed, just didn't seem like, like a good fit at the time too, because you had podcasts and you had radio already. And so why it just didn't make any sense at the

Mark Amtower: 12:06

No, no, it didn't. So, but you know, to your point, the podcast I have, I'm not the youngest guy on the block. So I know a lot of people who, who have retired over the last X number of years. And a lot of them contact me when they're vacating the premise and say, Hey, I've really appreciated. You know, your articles in Washtek, your podcast, your books, whatever. And I'm thinking to myself, Oh, why the hell didn't you tell me then? So we could talk about it. You could have given me ideas. So it, it, it seems to be somewhat pervasive.

John Tyreman: 12:48

So who are some of the, the guests? Like if you were like looking back. On the years and thinking through maybe some, some of the moments in studio, or I don't know if you did interviews, many remote interviews, but maybe are there some stories or times that really stand out in your memory as ones that you reflect back on and, and think about

Mark Amtower: 13:11

I think my favorite interviews have been either with other marketing professionals in the market or authors. So Anne Hanley was a guest on my show. A long time ago when her first book came out. The one she wrote was C. C. Chapman. Now I can't remember what it's called and

John Tyreman: 13:30

everybody writes.

Mark Amtower: 13:32

No, Everybody Writes was second. Oh, hell. Anyway, Anne Hanley. Every, everybody who writes knows Anne Hanley.

John Tyreman: 13:40

Yeah.

Mark Amtower: 13:41

But, you know, I had her on uh, She actually did I don't know if this is live or not. She actually did a blurb for my Selling to the Government book in 2010. I had David Meerman Scott on, the author of The New Rules of Marketing and PR. David had been on my show a couple of times remotely, and when he came to DC, we always recorded another show. So authors have been fun. The you know, the founder of HubSpot was on the show now I can't remember his name. Where's his book? Brian Halligan.

John Tyreman: 14:16

Ryan Halligan.

Mark Amtower: 14:17

those are fun because like we were talking about earlier, these are people that I might not normally otherwise get to talk to. So it's always, you know, I, I have hard copy books as you can see. I don't know if your guests can see all over the place. I don't like to read e books even though I've written one, one out of nine is an e book

John Tyreman: 14:43

One out of the nine books you wrote is an e book?

Mark Amtower: 14:45

yeah. And it's the only one I wrote on LinkedIn too

John Tyreman: 14:49

Well, you know, if the shoe fits, that audience is, you know, digitally savvy, I suppose. So, it makes sense there.

Mark Amtower: 14:56

And I did it for a friend of mine. I hadn't planned on writing one. Mitchell Levy calls and says, you know, I'm doing these books, and this is cool, you'll like this. back when Twitter was 140 or 144 characters, whatever it was, he said, I want you to do LinkedIn power tips, 140 of them in 140 characters or less, so they're all tweetable.

John Tyreman: 15:22

Did you do

Mark Amtower: 15:22

I did. Thank you.

John Tyreman: 15:23

Oh, man. There you go. Well, you know, folks that are listening to this, they, they don't see your bookshelf, but if folks are watching this on YouTube, they actually, they absolutely do. LinkedIn you, your business is it's a big part of how you, how you consult with government contractors. Can you give a, give us a little kind of taste of how you support government contractors on LinkedIn?

Mark Amtower: 15:47

Yeah I do a lot of training programs for for contractors on LinkedIn around, you know, How your profile should look, number one, so you can attract all of the attention in the world, but if your profile sucks, people aren't going to hang around. So it starts with a profile then, you know, developing and a connection philosophy. Who do you actually want in your network? Both incoming and outgoing requests. So, and then teaching people how to reach out to people, because you don't want to just send the form letter. You really need to put it in context if you want to get their attention. You want to personalize it. So, that's a big part. then, then the whole social selling engagement factor. There's a thousand and one ways at least to engage on LinkedIn. Maybe that's my next tweetable book, except I'm not going to support that platform. But And so many people just reach out cold, and you don't have to on LinkedIn. There's a lot of ways to create warm. You know, if you want to reach out to somebody who actually influences in our market, look at their profile, look at their posts, repost something, and say something germane. If you see them speak somewhere, tag it. You know, tag the event and tag the person. There's, there's just a lot of ways to get on their radar so you're now warm when you reach out. But when you reach out again, it's got to be in, in context. So, and it's, it's weird. You know, the platform is now over 20 years old. And. Everybody's there, but my guess is that only about 25 percent of the Dove cons contractors out there use it to anywhere near capacity.

John Tyreman: 17:50

Totally

Mark Amtower: 17:50

the rest of them are just there, and occasionally they'll post, and they just assume that because they're there, people will find them.

John Tyreman: 18:00

And then what they post is we are so excited to announce this new bid, or we're so excited to announce this new project. And, you know, why should, why should your buyers really care about that? You know, I think you bring up a few, a few really good points. Number one, the sales cycles in, in government contractings are so long. So it's not like you can, you can go out and prospect and it's a numbers game where you're going to get one. Yes. For every 40 no's. This is, this is a game where, you know, like you said, it's, it's about building trust and developing relationships and engaging over time. And so that needs to be really thoughtful and intentional and relationship based. And you really need to kind of do your research and understand. Who to reach out to. And I think that's, you know, LinkedIn is the vehicle for that, but there's a lot that goes into kind of the front end and the strategy behind it.

Mark Amtower: 18:55

yeah. So, this is going to come out in, our interview is going to come out in November. So, probably a month after this interview, I will have the updated version of my annual census on LinkedIn. The census of feds on LinkedIn. And so far this year. I'm tracking about 2. 9 million feds, and I've identified over 700 company pages for federal departments, agencies, operating divisions, offices, special units, they're, they're just everywhere. And the cool thing about that is if you're focusing on a particular niche. They may have a company page, and that company page will identify the key people that you need to reach out to. Now you know who they are, now you have to map out a way to get their attention without seeming to just want to sell.

John Tyreman: 19:53

And you don't need LinkedIn sales navigator to do this. This is something that where you can go on the free version of LinkedIn, you can go to a company page and I think it's You know, you go, you scroll down to people under the company page, and then you're able to see all the people that work in the organization. That's a really great kind of first step to doing that research and understanding who to reach out to

Mark Amtower: 20:16

yeah, it's, they're there,

John Tyreman: 20:18

And so for folks that are listening to this, Mark, I think you, if you're in the government contracting space, then yeah, you should absolutely check out Mark's what did you call it? The federal census on LinkedIn.

Mark Amtower: 20:29

Yeah, yeah. I, I actually sell the census for 195 bucks. So you get all 700 plus links.

John Tyreman: 20:38

So if you want to shortcut your research, check out Mark's research report.

Mark Amtower: 20:43

yeah, I, I, I have it in my posts, so it's pretty easy to find. If you don't see it, just, you know, in mail me on LinkedIn.

John Tyreman: 20:52

Very cool. So Mark, I want to get back to your podcast and your radio show Amtower off center where, where, where do you plan to take the show from here? What's next for your radio show? What's next for the podcast? What are some of the grand designs for the rest of this year? And then into next,

Mark Amtower: 21:10

it's, you know, it's, it's an election year. So, depending on the outcome of the election, I'm probably going to bring in some people to talk about how government is going to be, you know, similar or dissimilar where the money's going to be spent, you know, both Harris and Trump have different ideas on, on, you know, where, where to spend money. So those are important. You know, which contractual vehicles are coming into play and will they still be coming into play? So I think the biggest 1 will be, you know, where, where, where do we go from here? And I need to identify the right people to talk to about that.

John Tyreman: 21:55

I suppose you're right. Yeah. That the the impact of the election would have a major impact on a lot of government contractors. So I, I suppose that this is, you know, this is an important year for your radio show and your podcast to be able to, you know, take, take that larger context and then kind of unpack it and help government contractors understand what it means. There

Mark Amtower: 22:19

Yeah, and, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but I know several people would do. So,

John Tyreman: 22:26

you go. And they could be guests on your show, right?

Mark Amtower: 22:28

exactly, that, that's, those, those are the ones that I want, so I'll start queuing them up so, you know, by the time our show airs, I will be interviewing those people as well. You know, it's, election years are very important You know, feds, feds migrate they migrate internally and some migrate externally. Pardon

John Tyreman: 22:52

do you mean by that? They migrate. Oh

Mark Amtower: 22:54

they they go from agency to agency. I mean if you're on a career path in the government And the people immediately above you aren't going to be Moving on anytime soon. You're looking to other departments or other offices in your agency where you can go and move up or You To other agencies where there's a better chance of moving up, you know. If you're, if you're stuck in a GS 12, 13 or 14, and you really want to get to that 15 level and the person above you is you know, 15 years and ain't moving for another 10, you got to go so, and I track those on LinkedIn, as much as I can because there's a lot of people out there. I'm not tracking all 3 million of them, but you know, as, as, as far as the show goes I have no plans on vacating federal news network. They've been, you know, most gracious with me having me there for the past 17 plus years. and I'm going to stay. I'll stay as long as they want me.

John Tyreman: 23:59

there you go. Well, I think, you know, they'll probably want you to stick around, especially, you know, with the, the outcome of this election, whichever way it goes. So Mark, if you were, if there was a a younger business expert government contractor, and. he or she is thinking about getting, launching a podcast, getting into radio broadcasting as a vehicle for their business and marketing their business. What kind of advice would you give someone who's just starting their career in radio or broadcasting? Yeah.

Mark Amtower: 24:31

that you know how to ask a question, and then shut up and let the person answer. When I, serious biz, when I started on Federal News Radio, I needed a lot of coaching. And Program Director Lisa Wolf was extremely kind and very patient with me. And apparently I've evolved into a fairly decent host. I don't like listening to me, but a lot of other people seem to. it is what it is. But if, if you're gonna go out there and try to start something talk to a lot of people who have done it. A lot of podcast hosts, like yourself, John, are willing to talk to people about this. If you can find a studio that's Exists and work with them to, to launch it. So you have the equipment, you have the people who have the ability to get it on podcast, one apple, you know, all of the other platforms, even YouTube. So, and, and then, you know, what, what is, have a purpose for the show? Who, who's your audience? What do you want to talk about? Who are the right guests? And you know, until you, I mean. You know that there's new podcasts coming down the pike pretty often, and Joyce Bosks posts a list of GovCon podcasts every year she only lists 40 or 50, there's at least 150 now, that I know of you do a different kind of list, you do the best, and that's pretty cool, you know, listen to a bunch of those, Before you get started and determine where you fit, because if there's already four or five shows on procurement for contracting officers and for proposal people, are you going to be able to compete? I just wrote an article, I haven't published it yet, on influencers and, what role do they play in the government market? Well, I was thinking about this I think about weird shit like this all the time you know, our conversations back at Hinge, right? Where Where do influencers fit in the government market? Well, the government market isn't, you know, the world at large. We have no Swifties. There is no Taylor Swift here. There's no Roger Federer or Katie Ledecky here. So this is a market full of niches. So, you can be a participant in a niche here, And it's just like being a visible expert. You're not going to be an expert across the board. You're going to be an expert for a particular community here. And if you find a community where you fit, and where there is no current podcast, or maybe there's only 1, and you can do a different spin. You probably have found your niche, but you know, don't don't start a podcast assuming that everybody in the government market wants to listen to you building an audience, you know, for a newsletter for a blog for a podcast for yourself building a network for yourself is an incremental process.

John Tyreman: 27:50

And it, and that's so true, Mark. And I forget who I was interviewing. I think it was Scott McCain. I think when at one point he, he said podcasts are like on demand radio for any topic that you want. And I think that kind of applies here where in the government contracting market there are so many different niches. There are so many different, you know, agencies, and there are so many different, you know, types of consulting work that government contractors can do. And I also think that, you know, inter interviewing folks on a podcast is a great way to, is a great kind of step in a business development process and able to kind of nurture relationships. To, if I was to add anything to what you said, Mark, it would be to maybe look at a podcast, not just as a marketing vehicle, but as a way to develop, relate and build in deep in relationships with your target clients. As well.

Mark Amtower: 28:44

Yeah, I mean, look what you guys did at Hinge. You and Kelly put together this, this podcast and Hinge helps companies and individuals build out that Visible Expert, Subject Matter Expert platform. And you brought on all kinds of people that that illustrated certain points of that process, right? So, and that attracted business to Hinge. I was on a podcast just recently, I think it just aired uh, Lay of the Brand from Merit Group. So, it's my second time there with them, and Peter Jacobson and I have known each other seven or eight years now, and he's, he's their podcaster. I'd die to have his voice. Authoritative comes across really solid but I'm stuck with this but you know, we, we talk about brands, we talk about influencers, we talk, you know, we talk about the marketing side of the market and that's their niche. Well, building that subject matter expert, that visible expert was hinges niche. So, ad agencies can do this. I think more and more companies should consider doing it because, you know, you, you take a a company that's in cyber and let's, let's say they're, they're zero trust. So you've got some obvious players there and have hosting a. A podcast where you can have government people come on your, your podcast, you know, just like speaking at your event, but they don't have to leave their office to do it. Um, You know, or you can also interview your internal subject matter experts, because the more technical you are, the more likely it is. You got some brainiacs in your shop that people should know about,

John Tyreman: 30:36

true.

Mark Amtower: 30:37

you know, so, you I don't want to encourage more podcasts because that'll dilute your audience and my audience.

John Tyreman: 30:44

Well, Mark, I, I contend that we are still very, very early in terms of podcasts kind of reaching peak saturation in the market. If you, if you think about it, there are 600 million blogs on the internet. There's only 3. 6 million podcasts, right? And then of those 3. 6 million, only 8 percent are business podcasts. And then of that 8%, only 15 percent are actively publishing episodes. So, simply by showing up consistently for a year, you're able, you, I, chances are you'll be at a top podcast in your niche in 12 months.

Mark Amtower: 31:22

Your stats are awesome, man.

John Tyreman: 31:25

I appreciate it. Well, this is my line of work, right? I got to know my numbers. But uh, no, you, you bring us some great points, Mark. And I, I think that the podcasting is, is an absolutely an opportunity for folks. I think you've, you've shown that in the government contracting space. You've been pushing the envelope for decades. I just want to thank you so much for your time, Mark. Is there, is there anything that we didn't talk about? on this conversation that folks should know about? I

Mark Amtower: 31:52

no, but I do want to make one point. I walk every day. I'm not the youngest guy around. So walking is my exercise. So I'll plug in my my earphones and I will queue up a podcast or two. And they're always business or B2G and they're not mine. I don't listen to mine. I listen, you know, I, I still listen to the one that I did with you and you and, you know, Kelly and Lee and I, I don't listen to just me on shows. I want to hear what other people are saying. I want to hear what, how other hosts do things. There's a lot of really good ones out there. And, and I've listened to, you know, probably a half a dozen of your episodes on my walks too.

John Tyreman: 32:38

appreciate that, Mark.

Mark Amtower: 32:40

Hey, I appreciate you doing this.

John Tyreman: 32:42

You

Mark Amtower: 32:43

especially appreciate you having me on.

John Tyreman: 32:45

well, I think, you know, you queuing up pod, other podcasts and going on, on walks and thinking of thinking about how that can help you become a better host. I think that just speaks to your how you operate in this learning and growth zone, you know, and it's your track record that's been constant throughout your career. And so I think that's just really cool to see, and it's really cool to see how, how you've kind of spearheaded this pushed marketing forward in the government contracting community. And that's just really cool to see. So, Mark, thank you so much for your time and it's been an honor talking with you.

Mark Amtower: 33:22

John, my pleasure, man. Thank you for the invite. Anytime.

John Tyreman: 33:28

so much for listening to my conversation with Mark Amtower. If you found this episode insightful, please leave a rating and review, subscribe to the YouTube channel and follow along on LinkedIn. Happy podcasting.