Podcasting in Professional Services
Get inspiration and new ideas to grow your business podcast. A few times each month, hear from business podcast hosts in professional service industries. Learn why they started podcasting, how they position their shows, how it connects to their business, and more. Hosted by John Tyreman, founder of Red Cedar Marketing.
Podcasting in Professional Services
The Federal Tech Podcast, Constellations, and Farm Kid City Kid, with John Gilroy
Today we're gonna talk with a guy who did 1200 podcast episodes and give you tips on how you can be successful.
On this episode of Podcasting in Professional Services, John Gilroy, host of The Federal Tech Podcast, Constellations, and Farm Kid City Kid joins the show to share his podcasting experience. In this conversation, you'll hear:
- What motivates John to be an active ocean swimmer, even in his 60s
- The transition from radio to podcasting in the DC market
- The difference between a $25 million studio and recording from a local BBQ joint
- A diversified approach to podcast sponsorships
- Audio -vs- video in podcasting
Connect with John: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-gilroy/
This episode was produced by Red Cedar Marketing. Need help launching and running a business podcast that actually produces results? Visit www.redcedarmarketing.com.
Today we're gonna talk with a guy who did 1200 podcast episodes and give you tips on how you can be successful. That's your open,
John Tyreman:welcome business podcasters to another episode of podcasting and professional services. And today you're going to get podcasting tips from a savvy tech podcaster with over 1200 episodes under his belt today. My guest is John Gilroy, host of the federal tech podcast. Host of the constellations podcast, a podcast by Kratos, and also the host of his new show, farm kids, city kid, which looks at big ag tech. Um, and I think you're really going to like what John has to say. The stories that he has, John is actually also an active ocean swimmer, and he has a great story about that as well. Um, but before we get to my conversation with John Gilroy. Imagine you could build trust with buyers at scale. Imagine you were able to create endless content all from one source and accelerate your networking growth. Well, that's the power of podcasting. And if you're ready to launch a podcast for your business, go to redcedarmarketing. com. Reach out to me on LinkedIn to get a conversation started. All right. And now for my conversation with John Gilroy. today my guest is John Gilroy, who has an extensive media background locally here in the DC region, including more than a weekly, uh, column in the Washington Post for over 10 years, from 94 to oh four. John is an award-winning lecturer at Georgetown University and managing partner at the Oakmont Group, where he helps tech leaders, innovators, and entrepreneurs nail their podcast appearance. John, welcome to the
John Gilroy:Hey, did I write that intro? That's a pretty good intro, man. Huh? It's pretty good, huh? I didn't even believe it.
John Tyreman:Well, you lived it, so,
John Gilroy:I know, but no one believes it's half the stuff that happens to me.
John Tyreman:um,
John Gilroy:podcasting. We'll talk whatever you
John Tyreman:sure. Yeah. Well I do wanna get into that. And you are the host and moderator of the Federal Tech Podcast, constellations, A podcast by Kratos, and then your new podcast, farm Kid, city kid. So.
John Gilroy:kid, city, kid. About to lunch.
John Tyreman:We're gonna get into all of that. Um, but before we start, John, I just wanna call attention to the fact that you are an active ocean swimmer, and I just think this is really, really cool. You've swam the Chesapeake Bay three times. Um, you know, on a recent episode, I believe it was either federal talker constellations, you mentioned your son is actually training for a triathlon too.
John Gilroy:yeah, yeah.
John Tyreman:What
John Gilroy:not close to where you live. In fact, my next swim is, uh, uh, it's in Bumpus, Virginia. It's called the Rumpus and Bumpus. I think
John Tyreman:Is that how you pronounce that name?
John Gilroy:Yeah, I, well, we gotta be careful about that, you know? Yeah. I, I'm, I'm crazy enough to do that stuff. And, and, uh, then my next race after that, I got a lake race. Then, uh, I, I do my regular ocean swim in LA in August, so yeah, I do that stuff. It's uh, I have a son who's an adult. He thinks he's stronger than me. We ain't gonna let that happen.
John Tyreman:So the spirit of competition is alive and well in your
John Gilroy:Yeah, man.
John Tyreman:That's good. So what, what inspired you to start
John Gilroy:Well, I, I'll give you the honest answer if you want. You don't wanna hear it. Uh, my grandfather's named John Gilroy. He had one son named John, and my grandfather died at age 53. My father's named John Gilroy. He had one son named John and he died at age 53. I had one son, Kevin, and I was looking at 53 going. What the heck? I'm gonna leave my wife with three kids and die. Ain't gonna happen man. And so I got pretty crazy and I started, you know, doing all this silly stuff and still doing it. And, uh, I just think it's a, it's a fitness thing too, and it's, it's hard to do if you have an annual goal. It's like, okay. August 3rd, I'm gonna be in the Dwight Crumb peer-to-peer race in la. Two miles, 63 degree water. What's my best time? 1 0 4. What can I do to beat that? Okay. And so, so when you get in the pool at six 30 in the morning or seven o'clock, you have, oh, I'm not doing this for the sake of doing, I've got that goal. Okay? And I think that's your podcasters have too. They shouldn't podcast for the sake of podcasting. They say, okay, I'm doing this silly podcast. What's the deal? Why should I do that? Well, how is it gonna improve my bottom line? And if it doesn't improve your bottom line, stop. So, so that's why I do the physical fitness because I think it's long-term goals and, uh, maybe a, uh, I pass through the 53 barrier, I'd say. So I'm pretty safe. And my son's Kevin, not John.
John Tyreman:There you go. I'm actually the third John in my lineage, and my boys are named Billy and Bodie.
John Gilroy:good. The b and b boys.
John Tyreman:Well, masterful segue, by the way, going from long-term goals of ocean swimming to the long-term goals of your podcast. Uh, can you give our listeners, just so that they understand, you know, the types of topics that you talk about on your shows, can you give us, um, you know, an overview of the federal tech constellations and then farm kid, city kid?
John Gilroy:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the, the general umbrella is technology.'cause I have a long experience in technology. I was on a guest on National Public Radio for 25 years. Talking Tech. The Washington Post had right tech, I teach tech. And so it's generally, and there's categories under there. Uh, in 2017 accompanying approached me and said, we got this silly idea to this satellite podcast, and no one cared. It was like a small niche and no one cared. And I said, let's launch it. And so we launched in 2017, we started doing interviews and lo and behold, we had this guy named Elon Musk show up and this guy Jeff Bezos, and we got cars in space. And the podcast is doing extremely well. He can go to constellations podcast.com and, and now we have four full-time writers. So, uh, I recorded an interview yesterday with a woman from Intelsat and, uh, it was a great interview, so I didn't pick them. It was in the general category of technology. And, and so the other one is a federal tech podcast. And, um, I was with a company called, uh, federal News Network, and I was there for 15 years. I did 730 interviews and I said, Hey, gimme more money. I said, no. I said, I love you. And I left and started Fel Check podcast, and first six months it was flat. Then I cried myself to sleep and then I, and I figured it out and I've been a hockey stick after the first six months, so, so, uh, a general category. It, it could be, if your general category is finance, you could have something in there. If your general category is technology, you know, what if your general category is agriculture, well that's different too. So I. So I, um, I have this funny world where, uh, best man in my wedding's a farm kid, and I married a farm kid. My wife's born and raised in a farm. And so I've had this connection all the time and, and I was getting together with my friend and, um, sit in his hot tub in Ohio and he said, you know, 2% of the people grow the food and a hundred percent eat the food. No one knows each other and they don't understand each other. They just don't know. And so we decided to put together something where we could talk about sustainable agriculture, talk about water, we could talk about the farm bill, we could talk about new developments, tractors, tractor maintenance. Um, so many topics. It just is, it fills the plate. So, so those are, those are three podcasts and each has a specific, this is need, the business need for the Sally podcast was a big company that wanted brand awareness. Okay. And I started Federal Tech podcast to make money. Farm and city kid is kind of a fun project. We'll do it for a year and, um, you may not realize this, but there's some very big companies out there in the world of agriculture.
John Tyreman:yeah,
John Gilroy:And so if I can, uh, finagle my way in to get a sponsor there, hey, we're going for that. And so that's a, there's a goal, goal, goal for each one of them.
John Tyreman:and, and there are different goals for each one.
John Gilroy:I hope so. Yeah. Yeah, because I've had other podcasts in the past that have failed. I'll tell you one.
John Tyreman:Sure.
John Gilroy:So I lived in Northern Virginia, 70% of the world's internet traffic goes through Northern Virginia. Yeah, right. There's all kinds of data centers. So I'm driving through Ashburn one day and go, I should have a podcast called Inside Data
John Tyreman:Yeah.
John Gilroy:And so I called up a company and said, let's do it. Said yeah. And so we put together, uh, inside Data Center Podcast and I got a sponsor and we're doing great. We were having people and I was literally go into a data center, record inside data center, and we talk about everything. And, um, the company was so successful, they got bought out by NT and t and uh, and then NT T looked at me and said,
John Tyreman:What are, yeah, what are we doing the podcast for?
John Gilroy:I mean, t you how big that company is. It's like, I'm, I'm not even a rounding error. And so they cut me.
John Tyreman:That's a cool concept though. So you were recording inside the data center, so I'm assuming like the hum of like all the servers was captured on the audio.
John Gilroy:Let's talk about cooling a data center. Let's talk about water consumption. What about taxes? What about employment? What about security? Who's here, who's not here? And it was, it was great. I, but then I, I learned that, boy, you get one sponsor that's a death wish.
John Tyreman:And why do you say that?
John Gilroy:well'cause I get cut. A CEO comes in, Hey, bill Smith, new CEO, we hate you. You're out. But I perform, they don't care. And so I think, uh, my lesson is spread the bet. And, uh, I think if you have a, uh, if you have your own company and you have your own podcast, well then, you know, you don't have to worry about that. But if you, if you can rely on sponsors, that's a tough game. Um, but if you have, for example, if I have, oh. 30 different this month I'll probably do, I don't know, 20 podcasts. And so if I can get two customers out of there, fine. And then I do for a year, that's 12 to it's 24 customers. Okay? Then if for two years, that's 48, all of a sudden, you know, if one of these has a new CEO and they hate me, well fine. I got 47 others.
John Tyreman:right. Smaller
John Gilroy:And so I'd rather, I'd rather do the, the jabs than the big. Big hits just jab, jab, jab, because it's'cause it's changing so much. So, uh, so I think that's my advice for podcasters, that boy you pursue a soul. And I, I learned the lesson the hard way. You know, in fact I read an article for HubSpot called, I Failed at Podcasting. And so can you
John Tyreman:Well, failure. Yeah. Failure is a stepping stone to success. Right. You know? So how
John Gilroy:hub soul? It could be to another failure.
John Tyreman:Yep. And then, but you know, if that 10th one leads to a success, um.
John Gilroy:I'll tell you another one, another failure. Here's John's failures. So I'm teaching at Georgetown and all my Stu in graduate school there, you know, and my students wanna get jobs and they wanna meet CEOs and they all wanna work for startups. And I said, here's what we'll do. We'll have a podcast called Students versus Startups Show Down the Potomac. So I launched this podcast and I get sponsors because the students wanna meet CEOs and the CEOs, guess what they wanna meet?
John Tyreman:the students. Yep.
John Gilroy:So we got a room, got my audio engineer, and we get three students. And then we had CEOs and went back and forth for a, we did 60, 70 interviews and I found a single sponsor for it'cause they were hiring my kids and they were so successful. They were bought out by Maxar, M-A-X-A-R. And Maxar looked at me and said. You're
John Tyreman:there's a theme here.
John Gilroy:I know. Yeah. The theme is you, you wanna, Hey, I'd be happy if I have Walmart as a sponsor. I'd be happy if I had AWS as a sponsor or I'd be, well, I would be very wary of that. You know, it's, uh, I think even if I had someone paying 80% of my stuff, I'd still go get. You know, ten five percent here, 2% there something. So it's a, it's a, it's a trap. And uh, so I think that's what you have to look at the objective of your podcast, what you want out of it. Do you want increased reach and brand awareness for your company? Well, that's fine. You know, you can't put hard to put a monetary value to that. Do you want to actually sell a program or do you want sell consulting? There's another value to that. But, uh, so, so 1200 podcast episodes. A lot of failures in there. Well, let's see. Yeah, it's about a hundred failures in there, so, you know, oh, were they successes? Maybe they're successes. I don't know.
John Tyreman:Well, I'm, I'm sure there are, and I, I feel like, you know, being able to sit down with people like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is, you know, a, you know, chalk that up as a win on, you know, the personal accomplishments.
John Gilroy:yeah, it's great. I I, I've been rejected by both, by the way, so, Hey, I, I don't care. I'll be, uh, so, you know, do you know who Guy Kawasaki is? Yeah. So we're, we're in class and one of my students says, uh. I, I like Guy Kawasaki. I said, let's get him to talk to class. So I had him speak to the class for an hour. It's like, wow. It's another skill that you have. If you can do, uh, I guess podcasting, all of a sudden your fear of asking someone to, it's not a problem at
John Tyreman:It's so true. Yep. It, it unlocks conversations you wouldn't normally be able to have. Right. You know, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now if it wasn't for podcasting.
John Gilroy:I contacted you. One of my colleagues was Mark, and I said, well, what's he doing on this podcast? What's going on? So I contacted you and I said, we're both in Virginia. Hey, we have some fun.
John Tyreman:Let's do it. Yeah. And then, and here we are. Um, so John, you've got, uh, you know, you mentioned, um, federal News Radio and you've got background in media, Washington Post, um, even some TV experience too. At what point did you notice podcasting had become a viable media channel?
John Gilroy:Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, back in 2006, uh, I heard about it and I thought it was, uh. Too much of a time suck. Couldn't get any money from it. And believe it or not, I was working with a company called a OL
John Tyreman:Yep.
John Gilroy:uh, they had audio there and, and the goal was they wanted people to stay on long as possible. So, so I knew it was potential, but I didn't see any remuneration. How's that for
John Tyreman:There you go.
John Gilroy:Show me the money, man. No money. I couldn't see it. I mean, if you have a bowling podcast, sure. I got a tap dancing podcast. I clog a clogging pod. Well, that's fine, but it's not beneficial. So, so when I was at Federal News Network, it was one of the first digital only networks, and so everything was digital. So it's a podcast. And so what I noticed is that if you do a radio show and uh, Sally Smith is on vacation, she may miss it, but if she's on vacation, she could listen to it. As a podcast, couldn't she? Oh, yeah. And so that's how I started noticing. And um, and that's when, um, kind of all, all things came together. At one time, COVID came in, I started recording from a house here, and it got to be very easy. And I, well, I can, I can do, I need a 25 little, a$25 million radio studio for WTOP, the number one billing station in the country. 10th market number one billing in the country. And do I need a$25 million studio? Really? Well, I, I can go down to a, literally, so I got to go sick of Covid. I decided to go down to a, a, a barbecue place and record from Monk's barbecue,
John Tyreman:There you go. Alright.
John Gilroy:they loved it.
John Tyreman:Is that in per monks?
John Gilroy:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh. Wow. It's one of them. Then I went to, you know, uh, caboose Brewing went there. Then I went to Ford's Fish Shack and uh, and so we, we'd get the, and they, what'd you do today? Oh, I recorded a podcast at Caboose Brewing in Vienna. Really? And then I'd take, I always have, uh, the photographer of my daughter's wedding. I always bring him and a professional audio engineer and we get these great pictures. And so you can go to federal tech podcast.com and look at the, uh, I released a sample today, Jennifer Sample. I interviewed her a PhD and she just ran 55 marathons in her whole life.
John Tyreman:Oh wow.
John Gilroy:one up. And so, uh, I got this picture of her. We went to their, her actual, her office in um, Reston and took pictures of her in front of a microphone, did a great interview. They're spreading it everywhere. It's, uh, so, um, I found the value in podcasting because you could listen different times and also secondarily, I could do it very independent of big Studio. I've been in many big studios. The whole NPR studio downtown. The big one. The, the brand new one. All of them. But you know, it's, um, it can be done now where maybe, maybe seven years ago you'd have to get more equipment. Now the equipment's easier.
John Tyreman:the more affordable technology, um, you know, has driven, driven down the barriers of entry. Right. Uh, yeah. And that's, that, that's exactly right.$25 million studio. Wow. That's incredible. Um, and is, is that kind of. What led you to founding the Oakmont Group?
John Gilroy:No, no, no. I, this whole story, I, uh, um, I, I grow companies. People would hire me, I'd grow the company, then get out and another company get out and, uh, I finished this one company, I said. I could grow my own company. And so I live in a part of Virginia where there's this town called Philmont is a town called Airmont and a town called Bluemont. And my wife said, we probably need an Oakmont, Oakmont group. And the first thing you do in there at a company is you go to a lawyer and you lawyer up. And so you get all the lcs and then you find an accountant and you buy'em dinner. And you the best friends of my accountant. And then. Then after I was settled, then I started figuring out, well, what am I? How am I gonna make money? Is it gonna be public speaking? I can do that. Is it gonna be putting on workshops? Is it gonna be videos? I've done 250 videos. I had my own TV show for two years. Should I do tv? What, what should I do? How should it be consulting? Should I help other podcasts grow? Should I grow my own? And so it was, and so I wanted a kind of a umbrella term. So the umbrella is Yoke Mont Group. So what do you do? Oh, I, I put in starters for cars. What do you do? Oh, I, I shovel snow. I, I do podcasts, I do public speaking. And so what I wanted. I wanted to have that flexibility because I knew the world was changing so quickly. If I started a company called the John Gilroy Public Speaking Company, or the John Gilroy Workshop Company, or the John Gilroy, I help you grow your podcast company, or just a generic, oh, what do you do? Well, what do you want done? So, it's, uh, and I thought it was gonna be public speaking, but it, uh, it, I can do more with a microphone remotely than I can flying somewhere and getting on, you know, telling bad jokes.
John Tyreman:that's that's exactly right. Um, it's, it's funny that you bring that up because that's one, one challenge that I'm. Seeing pop up across like consultant consultants and speakers is they're just tired of flying around the country giving these these presentations and they want to leverage their time a little bit better. They can leverage their speaking skills on a podcast and then reach the same amount of people that they would if they were to fly across the country. And that's a drag. And so this is a much more efficient use of their, their speaking skills in their time.
John Gilroy:Now here's another option. So let's say, um, you charge$30,000 for a speaking gig, you
John Tyreman:Uh huh.
John Gilroy:and so, um, what you can do is you can use your podcast to promote your speaking skills and say, and, and then, then you have a qualified prospect because they say, Hey Rob, I listen to five 10 podcast episodes and I think you'd be a good fit with our company. All of a sudden, when you ask for 24 grand, it becomes very easy. It's not like I'm gonna fly to Kansas City and I'm gonna convince you to gimme 24 grand. No, no, no. It's like we, we know you already and you know, know, like, trust. And I think that's the value of increased reach and brand awareness. And you always help, help, help, help, help. And then if they said, Hey, you know, we need someone to go over and walk our dog. Okay, but, but the high ticket things like public speaking, that's, it's so much more efficient that way then you don't have to, and all of a sudden you can command more money, can't you? Yeah.
John Tyreman:that's right.
John Gilroy:I'm, I think it's a, I love that number.$24,000 for a speaking gauge. I can't get it. I'd love to get it though.
John Tyreman:Keep podcasting.
John Gilroy:Yeah, maybe. Yeah. No, this is too much fun doing this.
John Tyreman:Yeah. Um, speaking of, of, of, of fun, you bring such great energy to all of your podcast conversations and I, I, it was. Noticeable. You know, as I was listening to many, you know, across your different interviews, across the different podcasts, one thing that I noticed was that after each introduction, your guests are usually laughing and, um, I just thought that was so, so great. Where does that energy come from?
John Gilroy:Yeah, well, it's the goal. So do you know who Neil Patel is? Okay, so he had an infographic last week and he, he ranked YouTube and podcasting and public speaking and, and how much time you need to get someone's attention. And if you look at the graph, it's 32 seconds for podcast and I believe them
John Tyreman:There you go.
John Gilroy:because you get a little, uh, you know. Rohan Gupta and he's trolling around for a podcast. Oh, what's this about? Tap dancing. Okay. He, I dunno if he's gonna give you 30 seconds, he may give you, I don't know, 20 seconds. Now with constellations, my audience is literally. Rocket scientists,
John Tyreman:Right.
John Gilroy:I've gone on and talked about the La Grange point with physicists, and so they kind of know what to expect so they know it's gonna be some topic involved with space debris, or it's gonna be something with, um, collisions in space or communications to Mars. And, uh, and so then I do that open and I, I try to give'em 30 seconds and, and then if I can make it interesting enough that there's a laugh or something light, then. Okay, now we're gonna get serious because you start serious, you could lose'em. Man, too much is going on. You know, I mean, they're, they're walking through at the metro, trolling around looking for podcasts. And what's this about? Oh, I got it. And so it's 32 seconds and I think that's a, a good one. And, uh, just second public speaking if, um. Oh, I gotta tell you this. So speaking of going to Mars, so I'm doing this interview with Vince Surf, who is the father of the internet, and, uh, he's working for a company called Google. And, uh, and I said, well, you know what? What's your biggest challenge here, Vince? I mean, in communicating to Mars? He said, my biggest challenge. Is the speed of light is too slow. That's above my bay grade. I think. I think I'm gonna work on different things like maybe, you know, shoveling the snow or, I mean, really that's your challenge. And so, so that's a good, it's a good opening. People can say, well, the father, the Internet's doing the internet to Mars. What are his challenges
John Tyreman:Wow. The speed of light is too slow. Wow.
John Gilroy:So I think, uh, um, there podcasts about. Some, some more fun topics. I mean, we know that, and I don't go there. And so I just, because again, uh, you know, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and so if I can't hook someone's attention, fine. You know, that's it.
John Tyreman:I, I think you bring up a really great point about your audience and this, this show is all about podcasting and professional services. So, you know, the, there, the folks that I talk to talk about, you know, topics around like accounting and finance, finance and architecture and engineering. So these are pretty niche topics and it's very small addressable markets if you think about it, you know, relative to like the Joe Rogan experience, right? Um, so, you know, thinking of hooks. In context with the sophistication of your audience. Um, you know, you, you, there's, there's things that you can take from folks like Neil Patel who talks about marketing from a very, very general perspective, and then apply them through that lens of your audience. So I thought that that was a really cool way that you connected those dots there. Um, so John, I want to shift gears a little bit and let's have a conversation about the use of video in podcasting. You, we've, we've, uh, had some differing opinions on in the past on this. And, um, I would just love to hear like your thoughts on, in your mind, when does it make sense? And what scenarios would audio only podcasts suffice? What are your thoughts?
John Gilroy:Well, you know, if you go to a bar with a bunch of football players, they're gonna talk about, you know, the chiefs and, and the Eagles, and yelling, screaming, throw chairs. And, uh, if you go to a, a group of people who are interested in opera, they may talk about, you know, what's the best opera from Mozart and, uh, is it, uh, ex jubilate or what is it? And, uh, so if you get in room with podcasters, that's the debate video or not to video. That is the question. Like, it's some real big serious thing. I think. Um, my avocation is reading history and I'm reading books about the 10th century right now. And, uh, and so if you read a book about this guy named Napoleon. He said this thing, I, I love this quote. He goes, if you set out to take Vienna, take Vienna. Okay. So if you set out to have a good podcast, have a good podcast. Once you get to the point where it's successful, then, then you go down to a fi Enzo or Mon or whatever you want to go. And so, uh, I think that's the thing. And so I think people are, um, maybe, uh, hitting 500 downloads a month and they're plateauing and they're going, you know what? If I had a video, maybe I'd go a thousand a month. Well, maybe if you worked on your open, you'd have more. Maybe if you got audacity and you spent three hours practicing that open, then listen to it and corrected it, then you'd be better off. So, so I, I, I guess the plows gotta go deeper anyway, so if you wanna talk about video, I think. Video's very expensive to do. I've done tons of, I've done national tv, I've done local tv, I've done just too much stuff. You know, you can, high quality microphone and good connection. You can have a podcast before that video. And the editing. Oh my. And I have this thing about editing. I never edit anything. Everything I do, I send to a professional audio engineer, knock it out and move on. And, um. Video and video editing is just so time consuming, you know, and, and you gotta get worry about so many things. And, and I, you know, I don't know if the juice is worth the squeeze. And, uh, there are luminary. How's that for, there are luminaries in the podcasting world who are writing articles about, okay, here we go. Why I'm ditching video content in 2025. Hmm, that's interesting. This is Adam Shabel, S-C-H-A-U-B-E-L. And he writes that and there's, there's, there's other luminaries out there who are saying the same thing. Is that back in 2024, they tried video and they're going back and you know what? I can make my money on audio. I'm gonna focus on that. So, so that, that's my opinion. And um, Georgetown University had a TV studio. I do TV interviews there all the time and it was great, but they were. Very targeted, focused. I, I was almost designing'em to be evergreen, you know? Um, and, and I think my topics are changing so fast, it's just, so I do federal tech, so there's a, there's this thing called artificial intelligence. And so one week ago there was an executive order about artificial intelligence, and if you go there now, it's 4 0 4 error.
John Tyreman:Hmm.
John Gilroy:So. It's changing so fast, you know? I mean, wow, if I did a video about that, hey, go to a, B, C and look at the, and here's what the, what's changing is zoom. And so that my world of technology, wow. If I, if I can do a podcast one twice a week and keep up, maybe I can keep up maybe daily, I don't know.
John Tyreman:That is so interesting. I just did a, um, so I've been, over the course of the past year, I've been looking, I've been been keeping a record of different shows and professional services and I've got a database of about like 300 different shows across all these different industries. And one of the, the characteristics I look at is publishing frequency. And what I noticed was technology focused shows are much more likely to, to publish episodes weekly or more frequently. Compared to accounting and financial services and even legal, um, podcasts. So I think that that's just a really great example of why it's so important to publish more frequently in a niche like technology.
John Gilroy:Well, I agree. And, uh, so the, so what I do do though is kinda the video goes, I use Lipson and Lipson automatically sends the video to YouTube. So it adds to discoverability. I know that I also, I have a 3000 by 3000 image that I put for each episode. I. So if go to YouTube and search Federal Tech podcast, you'll see 200 episodes each with a different, so I, I think that's important. And if I had the time to jump into YouTube and, and really learn how to optimize it, because you optimize it way differently than you do for my stuff and, um, I just, it's.
John Tyreman:true.
John Gilroy:It's, uh, it and the podcast growth can grow, but things go different on YouTube. You know, you look at that headline, look at the thumbnail to make that decision. It's not 32 seconds, John. It's maybe a 10th of a second. And they look at the thumbnail instantly to make a decision. And so I think if I did videos, I'd probably put. 60% of my money into artists doing the thumbnail, and then 20% into hiring someone to do the headline. And then some along the way, I'll do the interview. It's just a, it's a different world and some people can make the switch. You know, it's a, so I know people who speak Spanish and people who speak Portuguese and, um, they're different languages and you can make the transition, but sometimes your accent's very strong in Portuguese and, or it's too strong in Spanish. And so then you, you don't speak either very well.
John Tyreman:So I'm, I'm hearing, and let me, uh, reflect this back to you. So I'm hearing that kind of the, the cons against video in your mind are, you know, the time investment, um, the monetary investment and the production element of it. Um, also, you know, things like the thumbnail and then the optimization of the YouTube separately from opt, optimizing your podcasts on something like a Libsyn or a Podbean or a Buzz Sprout. Okay. So I want to, I wanna throw something at you as, uh, kind of on the other end of the spectrum, kind of a pro for video and much like we're doing right now on, on this platform, like on Riverside. You know, I, I can see you. It's, it's great for kind of like the dynamic conversation, but the little video snippets that you can take out from an episode and put them on platforms like LinkedIn, I think is like a great example. The mere exposure effect of your face on a screen. Your target audience is scrolling through social media. They see your face over and over again week after week, after week after week. That mere exposure effect builds familiarity, which is a stepping stone to trust. Now trust is a supreme character. It's a, it's so important in the professional services sale because we're not talking about a hundred dollars transactions. We're talking about tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so that's why I think video is important because that face time, putting a face with a voice, you know, hearing them, building that parasocial relationship, building familiarity. Uh, that's why I see video as an important part in the marketing of a professional services firm.
John Gilroy:Point, counterpoint. Here's the counterpoint. I just put up a spark video today on LinkedIn. It's an audiogram and it has nothing to do with me. It's my guest and their logo, and it's a 32nd and it says, come on down, come on my website and listen to more. And so, um I charge people to be on my podcast. And so what happens is a company come up to me and go, well, I'm a b, C company. I'm trying to let people know what we do. And so you get in the podcast and, and we get their name out there and their face out there, and the people increasingly. Have people more aware of their company. I think that's brand awareness again. And so, so my model is not get my face out there. My face has been out there for decades. I don't care about my, I care about their face'cause I'm charging them money to get my next podcast. So that's, uh, I think that's a key thing where, um, in fact when I, I rarely get professional pictures taken to myself with, it's always the guest.
John Tyreman:Yeah.
John Gilroy:I can sh, when I did Jennifer's sample, I had a professional, we probably had 70 pictures and I gave her seven. And out of those 70, I think I was in one of them because I don't care. I care about them. And so what she's gonna do, she's gonna show it to her boss and then her cousins and, and her friend and neighbors, and they're go, what? And all of a sudden they say, we should do more. And I go, That's what I'm here for. Come on back.
John Tyreman:and for, for folks that are listening. Um, if you're thinking about what kind of show to, to, to launch, that's one of the big powers of having a guest on your, uh, you know, an interview based series, is that, you know, while it's a little harder to inject your own thought leadership into an interview format, the fact that you're bringing the guest on, you're giving them shine, um, they are more likely to share it with their network. And word of mouth is still the number one, um, way that new listeners discover podcasts. So leveraging your guests and their network and focusing on that and making it easy for your guests to share their, the episode. Um, arming them with, you know, different links to different platforms, different video assets, audiogram assets like you're talking about, um, podcast episode pages like, uh, John, I think you, you mentioned the other day that you do, uh, was it episode pages on your website for every episode,
John Gilroy:Oh yeah. Show, show notes page. And I have their picture on there. I have their logo. I have a call to action. There's a quote, 250 words use keywords. They can find it. And so what companies do is they, they'll, they'll take that show notes page and they'll bring it to their CEO and go, look, this is great. Let's do more. Okay, now. Now this is my own SP little model. I mean, if I were selling John Gilroy Consulting, or if I was selling John Gilroy the audio course, I would do a solo show.
John Tyreman:Mm-hmm.
John Gilroy:Because I way different business model, you know what I mean? I think I realize that, you know, there was one model, you get one sponsor that failed on me twice. There's another model where you get. A company to pay you to do the podcast. That's with credos. Credos pays me to be the moderator. I love that. And my motto is, I'll get 200 companies and ask a hundred for money and get money from 30 of them. And, and, and, and one hates me. One likes me new, CEO in they hate me, they don't like me. They new CE and they bring me in. And, and so now there's a different model where you sell your, your products or services. And I think if I wanted to become an authority. I would be John Gilroy. I'm the authority on bowling in Virginia, and I would come to me for bowling lessons, and I think I'd do solo episodes and I'd always have a call to action where they'd go on my mail list. And I think that's a lesson, a lesson for your people is that, boy, this mail list is just so much more important than anything. YouTube, blah, LinkedIn, Twitter, blah. Who care? Oh yeah. Show me the money. That's the money to eat. So I think across any podcast company, podcast, interview, podcast solopreneur, that email list is, huh? So, so much.
John Tyreman:That. That's fantastic. I was gonna ask that. My next question was gonna be what? What is the number one piece of advice you would give to a first time podcaster? And it sounds like building an email list may be that number one piece of advice.
John Gilroy:Oh yeah, I think so. Yeah. In fact, farm kid city kid.com. We don't have any podcast release yet. We have a mail list though. We've had a mail list for three months. And you go to farm kid city kid.com and go there and register for the next episode because that's how important I think it is because you know, the algorithm for LinkedIn's gonna change. Facebook's gonna change, uh, what tiktoks going out of business. I don't know. They're all gonna change. If you own the email list, well, you're not gonna change. You'd have the email says, you finally if something control, finally, you know, I mean, well, man, and hey, the next episode is gonna be okay. Good. By the way, I have a workshop coming up on a 10. And so that's, that's really good. And again, it all depends on, now I think if I were an architect, I would, I would structure it a podcast to be a thought leader in a certain area. For example, this is the energy efficient podcast about architecture. You could talk about, you know, going LEED and all that kind of stuff, or, or whatever. You know, if you were a, um, um, uh. Civil engineer and you wanna do the concrete podcast on concrete techniques. We're gonna talk about hot weather, concreting and, and, uh, uh, water reducing concrete admixtures or have a very specific benefit. And so if I were a, a, like a, an architect company or a civil engineer, I'd have all kinds of benefits and all, Hey, download the white paper on hotware of concreting. Download the white paper on air and trained concrete, download the paper on non-plastic, uh, concrete admixtures. And, and then. You could establish yourself as an expert and go from there. So I think, I think there's a, a lot of different, and my peculiar personality lends to this approach that I have. And, uh, it's possible that in 2025, no one will gimme any money and say, no Federal Tech podcast. We hate that. And I'll go, well, fine, and I'll, I'll jump to Farm Kid, city kid and go back to finding a big company, John Deere. John Deere, give me a hundred thousand dollars this podcast, are you even gonna notice it? You won't even notice that John Deere, they sell tractors for$600,000.
John Tyreman:Yeah.
John Gilroy:I mean, really? And so maybe go back to the old, Hey, I failed that before and I'll try again and fail. But if I have three podcasts and one of'em is a big company, one is just me one, they're paying me moderator, I've got my bases covered here, man. It's like, you know, invest in stocks and bonds and.
John Tyreman:You've diversified your assets there.
John Gilroy:Yeah, yeah. But your listeners can take a lesson from one of those, and the lesson I think is email. And uh, then once you get to the point where. The other, the other advice is I see so many people, they start the podcast. It's, Hey, this is the John Gilroy podcast about ReadyMix concrete. And yesterday my dog, uh, uh, blue, blue went upstairs and me, me, me, me raisins, and me, me, me. My next door neighbor has a snowblower. Really? Well, you know, I had a snowblower in Ohio and, and they don't. They'll get to it. So, number one, get an email list. Number one, when you set out, take Vienna. Take Vienna, hook'em. Today we're gonna talk with a guy who did 1200 podcast episodes and give you tips on how you can be successful. That's your open, I just wrote it for you right
John Tyreman:I might just grab that soundbite. Just put it
John Gilroy:That's, the hook. That's the hook. I mean, I wanna be successful. Well, here's this guy that made all kinds of mistakes. He wrote an article on how I failed podcasting. He's still punching, so maybe see what he, what he figured out.
John Tyreman:Oh man. Oh, well. Well, John, this, this has just been an incredible conversation. Um, I've, I've learned a ton just from, from listening to all your experience and learning vicariously through all of your failures and all of your successes. Um, is there anything that we didn't talk about that we should have, or is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners?
John Gilroy:Well, um, the moment to think, you know, everything you get blindsided happens in the NFL all the time, you know? And so, uh, I think I knew everything about podcasting. I think I knew everything about, you know, well, guess what? I don't. And so I participate in a local community. It's the Bethesda Podcasters Meetup, and once a month we get like 15, 20 people on a Zoom call for an hour, and we talk about everything. And they talk about social media, they talk about transcripts, we talk about microphones. We'll talk about promotion using LinkedIn, video, audio, and um, and I'm constantly learning new things and so I think I. If you have a successful podcast and you're making money and you think you're doing good, well, guess what? There's too many things to know, so come, come to the Bethesda. Meet up, go to a local group. It's in Chicago or LA or wherever you have, because there can be, people are going to tell you things. You go, I, I never thought of doing that. Oh, I know everything. Oh, you really do. You do. Well, I, there's too much going on now. You know, I mean, you know, this whole, maybe the video debate is gonna change in the next six months, I don't know. And, and, and what's gonna happen with, um, the search engine op, by the way, I have a show notes page and I have meta description, I have keywords and, um, I, I, I run it through different Screaming Frog to make sure it's optimized for SEO and, uh, maybe that's old hat
John Tyreman:isn't just Google anymore. Search is, you know, people are using the, the Spotify search bar. I was just searching on Apple, you
John Gilroy:I know, right? And so, so maybe all my optimization resio is a bunch of cabbage. Hey, you're a loser. Maybe. I don't know. But companies like it and, um, when they can look and see a picture of themselves. Audio, well kind. Good. Well look at this and go to my site, 500, you know, 200 pictures of someone else and one picture of me on the whole silly site. So, so that's how it works now. But again, different podcasts, different goal, uh. I think he said you did architecture type. And I think that's a, that's a little niche there. And, and you can go to so many different areas of architecture and, and become an expert in that little niche and then go from there. Um, now what Neil Patel says is, uh, the rees aren't in the niches. The riches aren't in the niches. You have to go tamp, which is total addressable market and go wide. And so
John Tyreman:I just, I
John Gilroy:debate.
John Tyreman:A hundred percent Disagree with
John Gilroy:know there's a debate. I mean, uh, and so I think, uh, and you can debate that in a small room of 10 podcasters. Ah, okay. And they can say, well, what about Riverside? What do you think? Oh, well, what about, you know, Lipson? Yeah. Well, how may show? Oh, really? What, how, how did that happen? What, oh, who do you hire? You, your auto engineer? What about photographer? Can you get a photographer for me? And so it's just, there's things that you don't, um, You don't, even
John Tyreman:you don't you don't know what you don't know until, you know, you have these conversations with other people who are on different journeys and you know, on different, you know. You know, maybe there are a few steps further along than you are, or maybe you're just a few steps further along than someone else and you can help share your wisdom with them. Take wisdom from other people. You know, podcasting. I love to say there's no rules in podcasting, right? So like we talked about, you don't even need to set your, pigeonhole yourself into, I'm just gonna do an interview show. You can have monologues, you can have co-hosted commentary, you know, bringing on the same guest a couple times, and, uh, you can experiment and try new things. And that's what's so beautiful about it. And that's why community is so important, because podcasting, especially in business, um, you know, there, it's, it's still a new phenomenon and there's a lot of unknowns and there's no right way to do it. There's so many different ways. So, uh, I, I think your, your point is well taken. Um, the power of community and going to those local meetups, uh, like the monthly one in Bethesda, so
John Gilroy:Yeah, good. I, I talked about video and audio and languages, so I'll give you a little Portuguese with a Spanish accent. You wanna hear
John Tyreman:Sure.
John Gilroy:Oh yeah. There's Portuguese with a Spanish accent.
John Tyreman:I heard Washington DC and
John Gilroy:Logical. Yeah. When people hear that, they go, what a funny accent that when Brazilians hear it. Yeah. It's a Spanish accent.'cause when Spanish first, then when I switch to Spanish, then they run away screaming. They go, ha, he he's on drugs or something. So podcasting versus audio. You may have an accent, a podcasting accent when you do the video. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a funny world out there. Next time we'll do it in Portuguese. How's that sound?
John Tyreman:I'll have to brush up on my Portuguese, but Spanish would be much easier for me.
John Gilroy:Portugal. See I said, I said the, the way the Portuguese say Portugal. Hmm. Portugal. They have a funny L. So avoid your 40 Ls when you do your podcast in Portuguese.
John Tyreman:Oh, well, John, thank you so much for your time. Um, folks that are listening to this check out Federal Tech podcast, check out Constellations, a podcast by Kratos and check out Farm Kid, city Kid. Uh, John, thank you so much for your time and, uh, every, all of the stories. All right. Thank you everybody for listening to my conversation with John Gilroy. If you found this episode insightful, please subscribe to the show on YouTube, subscribe on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Check us out at redcedarmarketing. com. If you're ready to launch a business podcast for your company, and we'll see you next time on podcasting and professional services, happy podcasting.
