Podcasting in Professional Services
Get inspiration and new ideas to grow your business podcast. A few times each month, hear from business podcast hosts in professional service industries. Learn why they started podcasting, how they position their shows, how it connects to their business, and more. Hosted by John Tyreman, founder of Red Cedar Marketing.
Podcasting in Professional Services
The Brainy Business, with Melina Palmer
Join us as we explore into the world of applied behavioral economics with Melina Palmer, CEO of The Brainy Business and host of The Brainy Business podcast.
Melina shares her journey from exploring behavioral economics to becoming a sought-after consultant, speaker, and author. Discover how her podcast became a crucial tool for her business, helping her secure speaking engagements, book deals, and even a teaching role at Texas A&M University.
Learn why she believes in the podcast as a superior medium for professional services and how she has tailored her content to evolve with her audience.
Connect with Melina: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melinapalmer/
https://thebrainybusiness.com/
This episode was produced by Red Cedar Marketing. Need help launching and running a business podcast that actually produces results? Visit www.redcedarmarketing.com.
today I'm joined by Melina Palmer, the brainy business CEO and podcast host, author, consultant, keynote speaker. Welcome to the show, Melina.
Melina Palmer:Oh, thanks so much for having me.
John Tyreman:Melina, this show is all about podcasting in professional services. Personally I believe podcasting is the new media in sports, entertainment, politics, and even in business. Fun fact, um, I. Business podcasts are the fourth biggest genre of shows. Yet there is so still so much opportunity in the world of podcasting, especially in professional services. So on this show, I'm trying to elevate those voices and inspire the next wave of business podcasters. So I'd love to set the table for our listeners. Can you share a little bit about the business side of brainy business? Who do you help and how do you help them?
Melina Palmer:Yeah, well it has evolved over the years in, you know, kind of ebb and flow of things as this, uh, you know, happens in business like you, you've said, and having been around for many years now. But really what I do my work is in applied behavioral economics. So it's the psychology of decision making and what I help people to do in all sorts of businesses from corporate. Clients that have global presence to entrepreneurs we've worked with over the years is essentially to help people understand how people really make decisions and how to communicate in a way that makes it easier for customers to buy and for employees to buy in.
John Tyreman:So you're taking market research and behavior, all of this research that you've done and that others have done, and then applying it to businesses at scale so that consumers can make better decisions. Love that.
Melina Palmer:Yeah. And then I, so I do training, so we do a lot of focus in the, so where I say things have changed over the years, it used to be very, i'm getting in there and doing stuff for you. And we still do, a couple, a few projects a year but now is really focusing on, uh, training and helping people to understand these concepts of behavioral economics and behavioral science for themselves and their teams so that they can apply them themselves. And just, you know, one of the things I know from being in business myself on both, in an entity and, you know, as a, a vendor of sorts over the years that. So often you hire someone to do something for you where it's like, man, we wanna get better at this thing. And then you hire somebody and they like go into a room somewhere and do all the secret stuff and then come back and say, here's the plan, and good luck executing that thing.
John Tyreman:And.
Melina Palmer:and what we do is more being able to have me. Kind of walk alongside the client to be doing some training for them so they understand those concepts and can start using them in a safe space where they can be asking questions getting insights into other, you know, research and things to look into as they're, whether they're building out a study or they're looking to optimize emails for more opt-ins or, or anything else, really being able to help in those processes. Changing pricing is common. All sorts of things like that.
John Tyreman:That's very interesting. So I, I suppose that you would work with a few different departments or organizations within your target client groups. Who do you typically work with?
Melina Palmer:Yeah, the it can change, but pretty common is marketing teams can be common. Innovation foresight type teams market insights and consumer research teams. tend to be in that kind of experience space, uh, and going into apply for, you know, current and future products. And also when it comes to pricing and, and sales teams that can come into play. If someone wanted something more on the. Buy-in for employees. If you have big change initiatives, whether it's like mergers or reorgs or looking to help people adopt AI and understand how that's important, how you're gonna communicate to team members, uh, that might be in an hr or other internal communications sort of team. So it can be diverse, but it's the people that really get that. Humans matter at the end of the day, you know, businesses rely on people even as we have more ai, uh, both in those team members and, you know, the people that are buying your products and services are human at the end of the day. And so being able to better communicate with them and knowing that that matters can be across all sorts of areas of the organization. But those are, uh, some pretty common ones.
John Tyreman:Very cool. So are you walking alongside those department heads, whoever's overseeing the team and helping them train their team? Or are you, do you have a team that kind of embeds themselves and trains their team?
Melina Palmer:Yep. So we more do. So if you think about the hero's journey of the, right, so let's say our customers should always be the hero, right? So They're the hero here. And we do this with our clients too, as far as picking, are you the mentor, the sidekick or the sword, right? So you're like the tool that makes
John Tyreman:Oh, okay. I like that.
Melina Palmer:in this case where you're saying like, if I was like walking alongside them and I'm like. In their every day, every meeting, like really ingrained in the team. That's more like a sidekick type of a role. Um, and we really have embodied that space of being more of the mentor that they're able to come a little bit helpful mentor than maybe like Dumbledore was sometimes, or Gandalf, right, where they go away a lot and kind of leave you on your own. But it is really about those, individuals have great expertise in whatever projects they're working on and being able to have a lot of things they're doing on their own. And then maybe it's, once a week or something that they're able to come in and ask questions. Someone I know has called this type of role, something they're doing. I'm gonna probably adopt this terminology, but I haven't done it officially yet. But calling it a professor in residence that he has
John Tyreman:Oh, I like that.
Melina Palmer:with a company. And I like that term as far as when you think about, so I do like office hours with a lot of clients where there may be multiple team members who are learning and working on their projects. They can come in and ask questions of me at one point, but it's, five or 10 or. 12 of them that are coming in for that office hours time. And you
John Tyreman:Right.
Melina Palmer:from other team members of what, how they're looking to apply habits or how they're framing things differently or considering social proof in their project. And it might spur, might spur something for you even if you're not at that point yet. And helping them to have those ripples of not just on the one project that they're working on, but really learning and building a support system as they build this habit of behavioral science and thoughtful questioning into the work that they do. So it's walking alongside them, but more in as a mentor, um, as they're doing the work on their own.
John Tyreman:That, that's really cool. And I like the way that you bucketed those three categories, the mentor, the sidekick, and the sword that you wanna be operating more in that mentor capacity and making efficient use of your time with your operator, with your office hours as well.
Melina Palmer:Yeah. It's uh, it's important for any brand, I would say, for people who are listening. If you can just pick one of those things, it tends to get really. Mucky when you think
John Tyreman:Think about
Melina Palmer:you wanna
John Tyreman:you wanna be able
Melina Palmer:all the people. And so if you can just choose if you're one of those three things and then own that.
John Tyreman:that
Melina Palmer:and for a lot of brands, uh, you know, the sidekick is the right place to be. But no, the most dangerous
John Tyreman:dangerous be.
Melina Palmer:sword. That if you're gonna say that you're Excalibur and you're a steak knife not good.
John Tyreman:There's a big difference between Excalibur and a steak knife.
Melina Palmer:Yeah. Or any sort of sword. Right. If it's not Excalibur though, it's
John Tyreman:sure.
Melina Palmer:uh, gonna do it.
John Tyreman:Maybe Sting, I don't know.
Melina Palmer:So we Yeah. Go back
John Tyreman:Let's keep going with the Lord of the Rings references.
Melina Palmer:right. Yeah. Make it happen.
John Tyreman:All right. Well, Melina, I'd like to shift our focus a little bit to, um, away from the business side of the brainy business. And now that we un kind of understand what you do, who you help, let's shift our focus to the podcast. So your podcast, the Brainy Business, launched in July of 2018. Oh my goodness. My panels are falling down behind me. Yeah, I know. This is,
Melina Palmer:the wall is like excited about what we got going on,
John Tyreman:i'll fix, I'll fix that later. Um. But y your show digs into the psychology of why people buy and to help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. There it goes. Alright, so, uh, Melina, what I wanna ask you is, uh, why a podcast? Why not a newsletter or a blog? Th those are pretty big back in 2018. Why a podcast?
Melina Palmer:Yes. Well, and I do have a newsletter, but the podcast was so back in 2018. I was, so when I found behavioral economics I had been looking for this for 10 years and told by different universities. It didn't exist. There wasn't a program. And so I was working in industry and by the time I finally found the field I knew I was pretty new, right? Since I couldn't find it for a long time. And while the academic side of behavioral economics was more established though still newer, definitely on the applied side, as I was doing my master's realized like no one is talking about all the stuff that feels so obvious to me of how you apply this into your work to brand messaging, to internal communication, to some of this pricing strategy so much. And so, I had. my corporate role. I was working, you know, building a freelance marketing company and where I was thinking I was just kinda like, this would be a piece of what I did, but like underneath the marketing stuff that I was gonna be doing. But over time got to see it was, you know, more. Front facing, I guess, on the work that I was doing. And I went to a mastermind from a popular podcaster that they had, a dozen or less of us that were part of this kind of one day mastermind. And I remember I had said, you know, I can see. The empire at the end of the road. Right? I can
John Tyreman:Right.
Melina Palmer:could be built here and I'm really excited about it, but I can also see that there are like 85 paths to get there and I'm really not sure what the right first step is. Right? Like what's the thing that's gonna be where I should put all my eggs on this in the basket, right? And what she had said to me then, and she said, I never. Ever tell anyone to start with a podcast because there're a lot of work and there's a lot that goes into them and much more than what people think,
John Tyreman:Yeah.
Melina Palmer:You need to go do this thing yesterday, like you should do this right now. And so I said, okay. Right. And That was
John Tyreman:That was
Melina Palmer:mid to late May of 2018. And I. Went to Google, like how to podcast,
John Tyreman:okay.
Melina Palmer:figure it out. I didn't actually listen to a ton of podcasts at that point either. And just ended up rebranding my company at learning how and hiring and editing team, um, and launching with my first three episodes on July 6th, 2018. So within. Six weeks or so was able to go from, what the
John Tyreman:Yep.
Melina Palmer:how does one do this to having a show? I had told myself, that we would, I would go for a year that I was gonna do weekly and I would never miss, I, I already did have a newsletter at that point.
John Tyreman:Okay.
Melina Palmer:but that I was gonna just. Make sure that this was kind of the most important thing at the top of the funnel. And then I could decide if it was worth it or not. In my case, it really took off in a way that I did not expect. So
John Tyreman:So we have.
Melina Palmer:one and a half million almost downloads now in over 170 countries, and those came on very quickly. And so it's been, you know, really cool in that way. Um, as far as why I went with a podcast to more. Directly answer in some of that question. It was partially just, I was thinking about it as like a warm lead generator too. So in the sake of, especially in 2018, nobody knew what behavioral economics was and so to say, I. Hey marketing people.'cause that was the focus I had at the time. There's this thing, it's called behavioral economics. And I know that doesn't sound like something you want, but it's really important and you absolutely should be incorporating this into your work. And you should hire consultants to help you to do that. And that person should be me is not a super awesome sales pitch. So I just figured. It was like a way that, I'm doing some public speaking or as I'm talking to people and I want them to learn more about a particular concept, they can hear me talking about it. Um, and it's just like, go learn about loss aversion or social proof, like, or, or other tips and things that could complement. Um, and so that, that was really the reason behind, and it did way more than ever could have expected it to do.
John Tyreman:And I love that and I, I want to dig into that, and I love the foreshadowing here. So, first of all, you mentioned that you, you were pursuing speaking engagements. I wanna start there. So you were pursuing speaking engagements and you viewed the podcast as a way to strengthen that speaking gull and have a point of reference to point people to, to say, Hey, I've spoken, I have skills. Here's a podcast, you can listen to me. What impact do you think that had on you pitching yourself as a speaker in some of those speaking engagements?
Melina Palmer:Yeah I think it's a huge piece. So I had already been speaking for several years up to that point. I have a background in musical theater and I've done improv and so comfortable on stage
John Tyreman:Okay.
Melina Palmer:Have always had that kind of background. And when I was in a
John Tyreman:I.
Melina Palmer:space, I was brought in to speak where it was like you don't have to pay to get into the conference and they would pay for travel or whatever, but they weren't paying you to speak per se, which is fairly common when you're coming from a company. Right. Um, but I'd definitely been on stages and panels and things over the years, but when I left that corporate role. Was then, you know, you make the transition of, and you should also pay me money to be here and be speaking. And so I had some of those already, but, in that smaller,$500 or 15 and a hundred dollars type speaking engagements. And which is great, and I did a lot, lots, lots, lots, lot of free speaking engagements, which you have to do as you're building the skill, right? But just like a book you know, a podcast is something where people see it and go, whoa. And it does help with that credibility, especially as you have more of the social proof that goes with it, of various numbers or things where you can show. More people like you, like this. And so, um, you know, we have however many thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of downloads that people feel comfortable then making a decision. What I have found from the show that's nice the years too, is it really is the warm lead generator, but in the way of if people, either they like the way I talk about the stuff and go, yeah, I get
John Tyreman:I get that.
Melina Palmer:work with you and we'll bring you in. Or if they don't. They're just never gonna call me. Because it's like they heard the show and go, bbl, that's not for me. I'm outta here. And I don't have to talk to them in the way where if we're not a fit for each other, we don't wanna waste each other's time. And
John Tyreman:Yeah.
Melina Palmer:haven't had to. I know, especially as you are early in business, um, or as. Economies shift and things get a little bit scary that like you have to force yourself to fit what they want versus who you are. And that unique you know, kind of genius you bring into the world, whatever that happens to be. And the podcast has made it to where. Like I am laughing about silly things or even when I'm talking about, you know, these important topics of an episode on hyperbolic time discounting doesn't have to be boring. It could be fun. You know, people like it and they wanna have me come in or they don't, and I just don't ever hear from them. So I think that is really helpful in, I can just. Be me in that process. And it's made it that I have to do a lot less cold calling and pitching, which, I appreciate because I don't know that anybody really, really loves doing that.
John Tyreman:Maybe there are some diamonds in the rough out there who really love pounding the phones, but, uh, yeah, I hear you on that one. So I, I like how you describe your podcast as sort of this qualification piece of your sales funnel where people who listen are either they vibe with you or they don't, and they get what you're saying and they want you to help or they don't and then they call you. And you've built it to a point where, like you mentioned, you don't need to go out and hunt for new business. There was one other. A point that I wanted to get to, to touch on with the podcast. And you mentioned that there wasn't a program around applied behavioral economics that you could find in your bio, you, it says that you teach applied behavioral economics at Texas a and m University. what Was the impact of the podcast in leading you down that road? I.
Melina Palmer:Hundred thousand million percent. It's because of the podcast that, that came to be. And so the first part where I wasn't able to find stuff, uh, I was using wrong names for things too. I didn't call it behavioral economics because it's kind of a weird. Name for the field. But then
John Tyreman:were you calling it first? Just outta curiosity.
Melina Palmer:um, some aspects of like buying psychology and business psychology in, in different aspects that just weren't getting me into the right departments where some of these programs existed. And there were still very few, like two last I checked, there still is not a school in the entire state of Washington that has a program in behavioral economics, and and that is very common. There are some universities that have amazing programs. That was also then as I was looking for things, it's like, well, I don't want to move to North Carolina or to Pennsylvania. I have. A family, like I can't do that. And um, I was able to find an online program that I got my master's from, but there are more programs now, but it's still, there aren't as many, it's not a standard at every school by any means.
John Tyreman:Yeah.
Melina Palmer:so early in the podcast though so one of the things I always did, and what I highly recommend because social proof is so important, especially for early shows is that I would do shout outs. On the episodes to say, Hey, thanks at super cool dude. Really appreciate that you said this thing. Like thanks so much for the shout out and I found super cool dude on Instagram. You should all go follow him. I've I. Put a link in the show notes for it, like to encourage people to leave ratings and reviews and just help get those like shout outs on the episodes and so on. One, that was like episode 19, I wanna say. I mean, really early there was one I. And I had said, Hey, at pool, Jeff, like, thanks so much for this five star review. Awesome. I can't find you anywhere, so I can't give a link or whatever, but like, please do send me an email. Let me know and I can give you a proper shout out. and so he emailed me and he's the program. Director at the Human Behavior Lab at Texas a and m University their behavioral economics team, and had said they love the show and that they had all their postdocs listen to it as part of their program. Um, that they
John Tyreman:wow.
Melina Palmer:listen to me teaching. behavioral concepts as these doctoral students were coming in and doing work in the lab because they might be getting their degree in something else. Um, and then they're trying and they're having to understand these, the behavioral science aspects of things, uh, which is that's the.
John Tyreman:It's super cool.
Melina Palmer:ever heard,
John Tyreman:Yeah.
Melina Palmer:That's amazing. And so ended up having a conversation with'em. They invited me down. I did a tour of the lab. My very first interview was with Dr. Palma, who is the head of the lab there that I did on site To test out all the different equipment and then. We ended up talking that they had apparently wanted to start a certificate program in applied behavioral economics. And what I have heard through this was that Dr. Palma had said the only way he would wanna do it is if I was gonna teach. I. It or in it, right? And so we co-created the certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics. I teach six of the classes, which is most of what's in there on and now over the years where I've then had books come out of my work. I have three books that I've written. They are. Textbooks for several of those courses, and it's cool. There are university programs around the world that still use the podcast as content for their students. And the books are textbooks even beyond my classes in different, uh, schools around the world, which is also and amazing and super cool. Uh, thing that you wouldn't expect. have happen. But yeah, that very much, a hundred percent my books, my TEDx, my teaching at Texas a and m consulting with the amazing big companies I've had no question. It all comes back to the podcast.
John Tyreman:And you wanted to learn about a specific topic. You weren't quite sure what it was called, but you went out there and you were doing interviews and doing monologue podcast episodes, and just talking about it and, and then doing the, and engaging with your listeners. I think that's another key component of it.
Melina Palmer:Yes. And by the time I started the podcast, I was already most of the way through my master's in behavioral economics. So from before
John Tyreman:okay. So, okay.
Melina Palmer:wi Yeah. But and that being said as people would ask about a concept or I came across something in my research like, Hey, I haven't heard about. thing before, like, I'm gonna go really dig in on, the endowment effect or on familiarity bias or pain of paying. Um, and just like I would spend hours then researching that work, which is helpful for work I'd be doing with clients and speaking and, and whatever else, but to turn it into a one hour episode for the podcast. Uh, so the first. 80 episodes of the show, uh, don't have interviews except that one with Dr. Palma. They're all just solo episodes and I never intended to have an interview show at all. So that evolved over time. Like the bulk of the show from the beginning was me teaching concepts, And talking about like the top five wording mistakes businesses make, um, or the importance of lead magnets and ways that you would be applying. Different stuff into work. And then eventually ended up starting with interviews and that's, you know, the bulk of what we do now on the show. But yeah, it was, I was learning along with people, but in a different, way. I definitely already had found behavioral economics and was like, whoa, this is amazing. And so the show's always been built on that field specifically.
John Tyreman:That's really cool. Okay. Uh, I think this, that's a great segue into the evolution of your show over time and, uh, you mentioned the first 80 episodes or so except for one, we're a monologue, and then you made the decision to bring on guests and to move away from that monologue format. A lot of podcasters in my experience that I've talked to, sometimes can get a little stuck in their ways. Right? It's like, well, I just have an interview show. There's no way I can do a monologue episode. It's like, come on. There's no rules in podcasting. Right. So what, what went into that decision to transition to inviting guests onto the show? And then you mentioned that you were doing a weekly frequency. At some point you made a switch to twice weekly. So can you talk about those two adjustments to your podcast,
Melina Palmer:Yeah. So one is like I too got have felt sort of stuck of like, but this is how I do things. And it
John Tyreman:right?
Melina Palmer:bit hard to make a shift but it's worth testing and trying things out, and people are more open to. Shifts than you may imagine. People pay less attention to you than you think that
John Tyreman:Yeah,
Melina Palmer:re so
John Tyreman:that's true.
Melina Palmer:enough, it was episode nine is the first one that I did as a dedicated concept episode where it was like, I'm gonna teach about something like loss aversion or whatever else. And I remember I was on a walk with my husband. I was like, people are used to, like, I've always done these other things. I don't, people are, it's gonna feel like I'm teaching and like it's too much of a lecture. People won't like it. And what if they leave? And again. To be having the conversation for this to be episode nine.
John Tyreman:Yeah.
Melina Palmer:like nobody, nobody knew what I was doing. That's silly. But it really felt that way in the moment.
John Tyreman:Yeah.
Melina Palmer:is like much of the success of the show came from that transition. So I'm really glad I did that. Around episode 80, the reason I switched into doing the interviews actually is I had three different. People that I was pitched by to have them come be guests on the show because the show had gotten big enough with audience that it was showing up on lists and things. And so three people were, uh, Roger Dooley, who is amazing. He wrote a
John Tyreman:Yeah.
Melina Palmer:His New Book, friction was coming out then he also wrote a book called Brain Fluence. He has a podcast
John Tyreman:Yeah.
Melina Palmer:for Forbes. He's awesome. He actually wrote the foreword for my first book, near Al. Who wrote the book Hooked. He also wrote Indestructible also amazing, huge, super cool guy and has done endorsements for my books. And then Scott Miller, who at that point was the EVP of thought leadership at Franklin Covey. And so within a week, I think these three pitches all came into me. And I was like, feels like I should at least try it with these, right? But at that point I said but I can only do, you know, one a month. Like, and I have to really space these out in between the solo episodes. And then as more came in, it's like, okay, so it's one and then two solo episodes, and then it's like every other one. And you know, over time it's evolved to be. Pretty much exclusively that new episodes or interviews. Uh, when my second book came out we started a process of refreshing an old episode. During the week and I do a new intro outro for it. And so that's where now, like at that point it was about 225 episodes of the show. Uh, now we have almost 500 episodes. And as people go in, like there's a lot of stuff in the middle that people don't know exists when you're
John Tyreman:Yeah.
Melina Palmer:finding the show. Right. And so to refresh an episode on scarcity or on. Partitioning or whatever. Um, people are like, cool, what's this thing? And it's a nice balance of, so those solo episodes, they do take a lot more work. They're, and I have to read
John Tyreman:Yeah, they do.
Melina Palmer:and things, but like writing a script and doing all of that, I would spend eight to 10 hours per episode doing
John Tyreman:Oh, wow.
Melina Palmer:doing own editing. So like, editing's not included in
John Tyreman:No, this is just the research.
Melina Palmer:and like all of that. Like just to research, write, record.
John Tyreman:Yep.
Melina Palmer:It's about eight or 10 hours
John Tyreman:People don't understand how, how much goes into monologue episodes. And it's funny, I, um, I interviewed Ross Simmons, uh, who, um, create once, distribute forever. Are you familiar with that mantra? He's, he's a marketing consultant and his podcast create like the greats. He mentioned that he, he pours so much into those monologue episodes and then that becomes, you know, a flywheel that he can redistribute. That's his whole thing. But it's, I think people, listeners may have this misconception that you just hook up a mic, hit record, and then flow. I.
Melina Palmer:can, it doesn't mean anyone's gonna listen to it
John Tyreman:That's a good point.
Melina Palmer:So like a podcast is as easy as you would want it to be, right? So, but like, beware where people will pitch you on the idea of like, in just one hour a month, you can have a weekly show. No, you
John Tyreman:Yeah.
Melina Palmer:mean, you can. But the likelihood that it's gonna actually do anything for you is very, very low. Uh, so advice I always give to people. And I'm guessing you have kind of similar here being like, so when I did the podcast, said I. This is the most important thing. Like I said, I will never, ever miss and it's the top of my funnel and I have to make it good. I'm investing in the audio quality and paying for editing from episode one and paid for someone to teach me how to do it, make sure I had the right microphone and different equipment because audio quality really matters and like I'm gonna just. Like dedicate everything to this. And if I don't have the space to do the newsletter that week or there's something else that can't happen those can adjust while this is the top focus, if I'm not gonna be as active on Twitter or whatever else at that point. Um, and that's okay to make this thing really work, but. Don't get distracted by all the shiny objects of saying like, I'm gonna do a podcast and a blog and a newsletter and be on Twitter and Instagram and TikTok, and I'm gonna do LinkedIn and I'm gonna do YouTube. And now we have to do shorts. If you try to do all of those, they're all
John Tyreman:Re
Melina Palmer:bad. So do one and do it well. And once that becomes a habit, you can add in some the next one thing that you can layer in. But if you try to do it all, it's just not gonna be
John Tyreman:it's like rings on a tree. It's like rings on a tree. You just gotta do one at a time and expand from there.
Melina Palmer:Yeah. I love
John Tyreman:Melina, thank you so much for your time today sharing your podcasting journey with me. So if folks want to go and check out, um, any sort of behavioral economics, any topic related to behavioral economics joke, go check out. The Brainy Business Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And Melina, if people want to connect with you and find you online, where can they go?
Melina Palmer:Thank you for asking. Um, yeah, so the podcast, my books, consulting, speaking, any of that, uh, go to the brainy business.com. It's all there. And then also you can find me on all the socials as the brainy BIZ, and Melina Palmer on LinkedIn.
John Tyreman:Excellent. Thank you, Melina.
Melina Palmer:Yep. Thanks for having me.
